Steel and aluminum tariffs announced

[Kyriakos]

^The bombing of Serbia was a charade for many reasons:
1) impossible ultimatum given to Serbia so as to avoid the bombing (in effect it would be military occupation-free move of nato armies in all of Serbia)
2) KLA taken off the list of terrorist groups, conveniently, yet they remained to be just that
3) Kosovo was serbian territory, with no question of status prior to the bombing (like their northern territory with some mayar population)
4) Mass exodus started from Kosovo only after the bombing
5) (which is revealing) the bombing lasted for months, cause the US didn't want to actually send ground troops and risk another situation with high-casualty rate (like Vietnam). The bombing of military targets seems to have all but entirely failed, so ground troops would not work with low casualty rate.
6) Serbia, again, was presented as the 'evil' part in all of this, while Kosovo now is allowed to carry on existing as a nato protectorate.

Moreover, while de facto it was an operation of the entirety of nato, in reality a few govs were not at all acting in accordance to their population (certainly true for Czech Republic and Greece).

 

[innonimatu]

@innonimatu
Kosovo is poor comparison.
There was a civil war, in which Albanians and Serbs were killing each other by thousands. Because of that, status quo was untenable and required solution.
None of this applied to Crimea.

But it just happens to apply to Ukraine now - there's a civil war going and the government is trying to regain control of a portion of its territory. So when is NATO going to bomb Kiev to force the independence of eastern Ukraine? Or when is it bombing Ankara to force the independence of Kurdistan? Hell, when it it bombing Tel Aviv?

Really, you cannot pretend that any international intervention is not shaped by the interests of those doing it, first and foremost. And neither can you pretend that the media doesn't lie and disseminate propaganda to suit the interests of the governments of the countries playing this game.

Worse, usually it's not even about national interests, resources or threats to survival. It's about power games and distractions by some individuals at the top withing the aggressor countries in these wars. Say Bill Clinton wanting a distraction from the scandal of having a blowjob, or the new crown prince of horsehocky-hole arabia wanting to pose as a big war leader.

 

[Ajidica]

I'm often the first to criticize the US/NATO foreign policy, but even I would say there is a substantial difference between the fighting in Ukraine and the Yugoslav Wars which saw mass killings and genocide.

 

[Yeekim]

Really, you cannot pretend that any international intervention is not shaped by the interests of those doing it, first and foremost. And neither can you pretend that the media doesn't lie and disseminate propaganda to suit the interests of the governments of the countries playing this game.

I'm not?

Worse, usually it's not even about national interests, resources or threats to survival. It's about power games and distractions by some individuals at the top withing the aggressor countries in these wars. Say Bill Clinton wanting a distraction from the scandal of having a blowjob, or the new crown prince of ****-hole arabia wanting to pose as a big war leader.

If bloodshed in Kosovo was really stopped only because Bill wished to create distraction from his flirtations... so what?
May there be a need for another distraction next time some morons start butchering each other.

 

[FriendlyFire]

But it just happens to apply to Ukraine now - there's a civil war going and the government is trying to regain control of a portion of its territory. So when is NATO going to bomb Kiev to force the independence of eastern Ukraine? Or when is it bombing Ankara to force the independence of Kurdistan? Hell, when it it bombing Tel Aviv?

Really, you cannot pretend that any international intervention is not shaped by the interests of those doing it, first and foremost. And neither can you pretend that the media doesn't lie and disseminate propaganda to suit the interests of the governments of the countries playing this game.

Worse, usually it's not even about national interests, resources or threats to survival. It's about power games and distractions by some individuals at the top withing the aggressor countries in these wars. Say Bill Clinton wanting a distraction from the scandal of having a blowjob, or the new crown prince of ****-hole arabia wanting to pose as a big war leader.

Next you will ask the Russians to allow Chechyan to declare independence ?
Maybe next Germany can use the pretext of One Volk to annex half of poland and Czech Republican make Germany Great again ?

Serbia was already a powerkeg situation, with ethnic problems, economic problems.
I suspect that without Russian backing Serbia would have backed down and the war avoided. Probably the only real viable long term solution

 

[Zkribbler]

Ethnic cleansing was caused by NATO...

An ahem "interesting" point of view. I can't help but wonder what NATO's motivation was.

 

[Broken_Erika]

An ahem "interesting" point of view. I can't help but wonder what NATO's motivation was.

To Carry out the will of Hillary as a part of a devious master plan that led to Banghazi!!!!!

 

[GoodSarmatian]

An ahem "interesting" point of view. I can't help but wonder what NATO's motivation was.

Distract from the Lewinsky affair.
Get more military bases in the Balkans to counter Russian influence.
Smash the last remaining officially Socialist state in Europe out of principle.
"Open" the markets for exploitation by Western companies

Fun fact: A company chaired by war crimin General Wesley Clark has a quasi monopoly on coal mining in Kosovo.

 

[Kyriakos]

Distract from the Lewinsky affair.
Get more military bases in the Balkans to counter Russian influence.
Smash the last remaining officially Socialist state in Europe out of principle.
"Open" the markets for exploitation by Western companies

Fun fact: A company chaired by war crimin General Wesley Clark has a quasi monopoly on coal mining in Kosovo.

Wesley Clark was another nasty piece of work. I recall his (oh so funny) statement about the bombing of Serbia: "Dr. Death is going to visit Belgrade". Yes, and you should visit the insane asylum and never leave.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Wesley Clark was another nasty piece of work. I recall his (oh so funny) statement about the bombing of Serbia: "Dr. Death is going to visit Belgrade". Yes, and you should visit the insane asylum and never leave.

That's almost the most messed part about it*.
A lot of the bombings took place in major Serbian cities far away from Kosovo. There was no direct military objective.
Granted there were a lot of indirect military objectives:

• Disrupt the "military" infrastructure by destroying bridges highways.
  
• Bomb factories because they could be use to build weapons.
  
• Demoralize the country with with a few destroyed hospitals and grade schools.
  
• Bomb a TV station because it was doing propaganda and thus a legitimate target. I was watching Serbian TV at the time and it was stupid, nationalistic and deranged propaganda, but frankly hardly worse than what you'd see on Fox News. If someone blew up the Fox (or CNN for that matter) headquarters now they'd call it terrorism. And they would be right because the people who work there -disgusting as they are- are still civilians.

*The most messed part is Serbia's high cancer rate due to depleted Uranium ammunition.

 

[innonimatu]

The sad thing is that for many people it will take being in the receiving side of one such war to change they default view that such wars must be "just" because "human rights", or "democracy" or whatever the government-sponsored propaganda says. The "west" has been peaceful at home for so long that these people are comfortable believing those lies, don't want to deal with the idea that they're consenting to, being accomplices to, nasty wars waged for profit and power.

 

[Broken_Erika]

The sad thing is that for many people it will take being in the receiving side of one such war to change they default view that such wars must be "just" because "human rights", or "democracy" or whatever the government-sponsored propaganda says. The "west" has been peaceful at home for so long that these people are comfortable believing those lies, don't want to deal with the idea that they're consenting to, being accomplices to, nasty wars waged for profit and power.

You seem agitated, there's a pill for that. Then you can be a mindless worry-free consumer like everyone else!
This message has been brought to you by your local pharmaceutical and retail associations.

 

[Yeekim]

The sad thing is that for many people it will take being in the receiving side of one such war to change they default view that such wars must be "just" because "human rights", or "democracy" or whatever the government-sponsored propaganda says. The "west" has been peaceful at home for so long that these people are comfortable believing those lies, don't want to deal with the idea that they're consenting to, being accomplices to, nasty wars waged for profit and power.

Do you think military intervention is ever justified?

 

[Kyriakos]

Russian minorities may require it, in the near future too.
Almost makes having a common eu army with member-states veto powers re what to do - as in common currency - tempting.
Almost.

 

[Yeekim]

Russian minorities may require it, in the near future too..

You have information about a planned ethnic cleansing of Russian minorities? And in the near future, no less?
That's most curious, do go on. Should I place an order to improve my dwindling stocks of Zyklon B now or is there time to wait for sale?

 

[Perfection]

You seem agitated, there's a pill for that. Then you can be a mindless worry-free consumer like everyone else!
This message has been brought to you by your local pharmaceutical and retail associations.

Always remember: stressed backwards is desserts

 

[innonimatu]

Do you think military intervention is ever justified?

In self-defense, or in defense of an attacked ally, sure.

Anything beyond that must be argued for based on very public, very explicit and totally unambiguous complete evidence. When was the last "preemptive" war started with full evidence published to back the claims made to "sell" it?

 

[Yeekim]

In self-defense, or in defense of an attacked ally, sure.
Anything beyond that must be argued for based on very public, very explicit and totally unambiguous complete evidence.
When was the last "preemptive" war started with full evidence published to back the claims made to "sell" it?

You realize that this (1) public, 2) explicit, 3) unambiguous 4) complete) is in practice an impossible standard, which is a major reason beyond a lack of your requested example?

 

[rah]

Like publishing election results that showed that people were in favor of it.

 

[Hrothbern]

Coming Friday Trump planned to start the tariffs on steel and alu.

And Paul Ryan, Republican, Speaker of the House of Representatives, is apparently getting extra addition from the EU to influence Trump to give the EU the same exception as Canada, Mexico and Australia.
The EU has in mind to start tariffs on Harley-Davidsons and Cranberries the main export products of Paul Ryan's home state Wisconsin to the EU.
(50% of the global cranberry production is in Wisconsin !)
The partyleaders of both the Republican as the Democratic party are not overlooked: Kentucky (Mitch McConell) gets a Bourbon tariff and California (Nancy Pelosi) gets a tariff on Levi jeans.

So what soap do we get ?
When functions change in the US... for example Nancy Pelosi is replaced in November.... is the EU going to pick another product from the homestate of the new partyleader of the Democrats ???