Stock Swordsman Rush - No Praets No Cheese!

[TheMeInTeam]

Yea that's a good point. If given enough time like in a PBEM game, a supreme micro who beats Deity can excel. However most MP games are played with Blazing and Quick game speed and in an FFA game I think they'll struggle quite a bit. AI's personality is hard-coded. You get Boudica to pleased and you're safe. Humans will declare war if they sense opportunity every single time. Humans are ruthless in attacking. Humans will pillage your metal, humans will choke you while they tech Construction, humans will fork your cities so you don't know where they will attack until the last possible moment. It's a whole different game than SP. It's no use getting tanks in 1400 AD when most MP games are decided by 500 BC unless it's an advanced start.

I suspect you are severely underestimating the great SP deity players here, past and present. The same game knowledge that lets them optimize for tanks in 1400AD with terrible starts also applies to "get as many military units as physically possible by 1000 BC". Maybe a couple would suffer for the timer, but the idea of someone like Rusten getting rushed out by a typical MP attack timing is laughable. He'd probably be able to tell you what units the enemy is starting to build 30 turns before the attack, just looking at the demographics, despite the timer lol.

 

[dankok]

I suspect you are severely underestimating the great SP deity players here, past and present. The same game knowledge that lets them optimize for tanks in 1400AD with terrible starts also applies to "get as many military units as physically possible by 1000 BC". Maybe a couple would suffer for the timer, but the idea of someone like Rusten getting rushed out by a typical MP attack timing is laughable. He'd probably be able to tell you what units the enemy is starting to build 30 turns before the attack, just looking at the demographics, despite the timer lol.

That's the thing. With the timer you don't have time to do all of these little things that let you optimize everything. I definitely don't think Rusten would get his junk pushed by a random MP player but if you're a great SP with no experience in MP there is a huge adjustment to be made. In MP you have to be in the mindset of "make a good move quickly" rather than "make the best move". Of course I would bet many Deity players on this forum have in fact tried MP and are at least somewhat experienced with it. I'm talking about a hypothetical or not MP noob who is a Rusten-level SP player. I don't think he would be destroying people who are top of the ladder in MP. In fact I'm sure of it.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

A pure swordsmen attack is maybe my favourite thing in the game.

The beauty of it is that it lets you tech up and beeline whatever you want, be it Litterature or Civil Service. Self-teching Iron Working is a no-go ; of course, you're trading for it. Tech cost : 0. You also have Mathematics and Monarchy, because you went up the trading route.
You need a compact Empire and a compact no-metal neighbour. Then swords are extremeley cost effective. Ideally, you're attacking into Chariots.

Horse Archers will generally be more effective, or are less conditional, but they also require a more focused setup. A swords attack happens incidentally on your way up.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

That's the thing. With the timer you don't have time to do all of these little things that let you optimize everything. I definitely don't think Rusten would get his junk pushed by a random MP player but if you're a great SP with no experience in MP there is a huge adjustment to be made. In MP you have to be in the mindset of "make a good move quickly" rather than "make the best move". Of course I would bet many Deity players on this forum have in fact tried MP and are at least somewhat experienced with it. I'm talking about a hypothetical or not MP noob who is a Rusten-level SP player. I don't think he would be destroying people who are top of the ladder in MP. In fact I'm sure of it.

Probably not, for the same reason that those top-of-ladder players could likely beat deity SP maps in relatively few tries, if not immediately (depending on their own prior SP knowledge similar to your hypothetical SP guy). It's not like elite MP players don't know how to micro, rather anybody that high on the ladder probably has many/most of the important micro decision points memorized. They'd only have to learn AI manipulation to be good deity players themselves.

You need a compact Empire and a compact no-metal neighbour. Then swords are extremeley cost effective. Ideally, you're attacking into Chariots.

Main issue with this is that it can be extremely obnoxious to deny them trading for metal, and high difficulty AI can spit out metal units pretty fast if they do. You probably don't have the extra to dump into blocking trades via coast access (might not even have sailing yet), and sometimes rivers allow it too. But yes in situations where metal can be reliably denied they're pretty good, and this is something you can scout/figure before committing.

 

[dankok]

Probably not, for the same reason that those top-of-ladder players could likely beat deity SP maps in relatively few tries, if not immediately (depending on their own prior SP knowledge similar to your hypothetical SP guy). It's not like elite MP players don't know how to micro, rather anybody that high on the ladder probably has many/most of the important micro decision points memorized. They'd only have to learn AI manipulation to be good deity players themselves.

AI manipulation is pretty big as is effective tech trading. Also disagree on micro. I've watched top ladder games and the depth of micro is much lower than what many Deity players seem to use in SP. They do have important decision points memorized like you said but SP is chess and MP is Blitz chess.

Re: Sword rush

Agg Swords aren't even half bad against Axes. The first Sword assuming they are properly promoted to CI/Shock will usually die but will soften up the Axe to be killed by the second Sword. It's not like attacking Spears with Chariots which is how some people here are insinuating. If you're using regular Swords and or facing Agg Axes then it's tougher but a Sword rush with an Agg leader works pretty damn well in many cases. I mean in the game in the OP in which I had bad luck (lost a barb city) and generally played sloppily I used to Swords to wipe out one AI (Pacal) and completely cripple another (Hatty) who had Copper in the BFC no less. A better Swords rush and I could have straight wiped two opponents out by 500 BC.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

AI manipulation is pretty big as is effective tech trading. Also disagree on micro. I've watched top ladder games and the depth of micro is much lower than what many Deity players seem to use in SP. They do have important decision points memorized like you said but SP is chess and MP is Blitz chess.

Sure, but to further that analogy...pros can blitz chess at a level beyond what even very highly rated players (top 5-10%) can possibly do in classical chess. I expect the skills to similarly translate in Civ. Since the previous example was talking about people at the *top* of the MP ladder, I expect their abilities to be similarly high.

Agg Swords aren't even half bad against Axes. The first Sword assuming they are properly promoted to CI/Shock will usually die but will soften up the Axe to be killed by the second Sword.

Thing is, AGG axes are guaranteed available if swords are...but are available earlier and are even better against defending axes/spears/swords. Swords are only better against archers, and they cost more. Swords don't make sense if target has metal; in that case just make axes.

As others have noted eliminating 2+ AI is possible with any resource-based earlygame unit below deity.

 

[dankok]

Sure, but to further that analogy...pros can blitz chess at a level beyond what even very highly rated players (top 5-10%) can possibly do in classical chess. I expect the skills to similarly translate in Civ. Since the previous example was talking about people at the *top* of the MP ladder, I expect their abilities to be similarly high.

Sure. I can agree with that.

Thing is, AGG axes are guaranteed available if swords are...but are available earlier and are even better against defending axes/spears/swords. Swords are only better against archers, and they cost more. Swords don't make sense if target has metal; in that case just make axes.

As others have noted eliminating 2+ AI is possible with any resource-based earlygame unit below deity.

Thing is Copper is rare compared to Iron so sometimes an Axerush isn't an option like the map in the OP. There is no nearby Copper. If there was, I would go Axes because it's earlier.

Possible is different from reliable. But yea that's true.

 

[drewisfat]

The first Sword assuming they are properly promoted to CI/Shock will usually die but will soften up the Axe to be killed by the second Sword. It's not like attacking Spears with Chariots which is how some people here are insinuating.

You knew before posting that the consensus of top players was against self-teching IW. IDK why you'd start this thread if you were going to be defensive to the point of hostility.

Chariots were shown as an example that many units can work, especially on Emperor. The exact timing of attack on Pacal was opportunistic due to him delaying BW. Otherwise either Egypt would have been attacked, or a couple more chariots produced. Because, as Fippy actually demonstrated with a screenshot illustration, you can swarm down a single counter unit. You seem to be annoyed that a "non-optimal" example worked - which is actually the exact critique made against using show games like this thread as evidence.

In general, the AI is inherently vulnerable to early aggression. This is because you can focus 100% of production on military (even more than "100%" if spamming chops), while the AI is going to be expanding, building infrastructure, and possibly even building wonders. There's no easy solution around this, and it's the main reason the AI on higher difficulties is given free archers. But the AI isn't really bullyproofed until you give it the extra settler on Deity. It also makes sense that in trying to evaluate which strats are more efficient and viable we'd consider how they hold up under the biggest stress test we have, i.e. deity. While Deity does change the game, it isn't as rigid as you've suggested. The first unit available that I never build is Knights.

I used to be a fanboy of swords. I've made pure sword rushes work even on D. But I've had too many sword rushes result in Pyrrhic victories. The game is roughly balanced such that 2 movers are comparable to 1 movers, but the big reason for this is that siege are 1 movers. We also fall behind commerce-wise by self-teching something that isn't good for trades, but is super reliable to get in trades. I know you showed an example of trading IW here. I honestly wouldn't have taken that trade even if available. All techs received in trades tick up WFYABTA equally and this can come back to bite me later in the game.

 

[dankok]

You knew before posting that the consensus of top players was against self-teching IW. IDK why you'd start this thread if you were going to be defensive to the point of hostility.

Chariots were shown as an example that many units can work, especially on Emperor. The exact timing of attack on Pacal was opportunistic due to him delaying BW. Otherwise either Egypt would have been attacked, or a couple more chariots produced. Because, as Fippy actually demonstrated with a screenshot illustration, you can swarm down a single counter unit. You seem to be annoyed that a "non-optimal" example worked - which is actually the exact critique made against using show games like this thread as evidence.

In general, the AI is inherently vulnerable to early aggression. This is because you can focus 100% of production on military (even more than "100%" if spamming chops), while the AI is going to be expanding, building infrastructure, and possibly even building wonders. There's no easy solution around this, and it's the main reason the AI on higher difficulties is given free archers. But the AI isn't really bullyproofed until you give it the extra settler on Deity. It also makes sense that in trying to evaluate which strats are more efficient and viable we'd consider how they hold up under the biggest stress test we have, i.e. deity. While Deity does change the game, it isn't as rigid as you've suggested. The first unit available that I never build is Knights.

I used to be a fanboy of swords. I've made pure sword rushes work even on D. But I've had too many sword rushes result in Pyrrhic victories. The game is roughly balanced such that 2 movers are comparable to 1 movers, but the big reason for this is that siege are 1 movers. We also fall behind commerce-wise by self-teching something that isn't good for trades, but is super reliable to get in trades. I know you showed an example of trading IW here. I honestly wouldn't have taken that trade even if available. All techs received in trades tick up WFYABTA equally and this can come back to bite me later in the game.

Good post but...

I'm not happy that you're accusing me of hostility. I never personally attacked anyone except in reply to being attacked myself. I have no interest in that. When I basically told Fippy that Chariots are non-optimal which you said here and is perfectly reasonable, she got upset and started attacking me personally how I'm not experienced in the game and how I don't understand the complexity of the game.

First of all I want to clarify on this yet again because my position is misrepresented. Never once did I say that IW should be self-research every time or even most of the time. I think this game is well set for self-researching it and Sword rushing because:

1 - there is no nearby Copper
2 - leader is Agg and Swords get a serious boost from this trait; like I mentioned give them Shock and they can cut through Axes as well
3 - nearby targets are soft

I initially said that I self-research IW about 30-50% of the time but I overstated it. It's probably about 20%. Usually if I have no nearby Copper I will opt for Iron Working. If I'm Agg, then almost definitely. Thing is when I was playing this game I had no idea I would be Sword-rushing or posting it on here. The map just led me to it.

Every strategy in the game is situational. Some more than others.