Stop the Presses!

[Afforess]

So, I'm trying to encourage you to focus primarily on stability of AND, so that you leave a viable version that requires little maintenance, and also to be ready to work in parallel on AND and Civ5 for a little while if need be.

No worries there, I won't just abandon ship and let her slowly sink. I'll make sure she can float by herself before I leave. AND 1.60 beta11 is already solid as a rock, and should be nearly bug free... So I think I'm already getting close, at least for stability.

 

[CMKMStephens]

I suppose there'll be fewer people jumping up and down going AFFORESS DO THIS! ZAPPARA DO THAT! and instead redirecting at Firaxis...

 

[Ogaburan]

I'm afraid I don't understand your sadness... New Game Engine = Very Fast Turns, plus lots of other new things, and it's supposed to be even more moddable. This is a very happy day for me.

Because i think like me, he fears:
1. New Game Engine = slower turns due to incredible system requirements.
2. Slower turns due to awesome mods like ROM AND that will make the game even slower.
3. Wasted time we will be forced to play the vanilla, with its horrible tech tree and "for the masses" gameplay.
4. Usually a game like this with good graphics = neglected AI. Something the Civ franchise lacked form the beginning.
5. Pessimism - after i saw the screenshots and the lack of information... i fear it will just be a beautification of civ4, nothing really more. I fear another civ3 which (subjectively) i think was the worse game of the series and that another game which i will not mention its name was much better even if it had nothing to do with sid.
6. Fear of change - New isn't always better. and unlike AND some of the new features we wont be able to turn off... at least those of us who are not modders.

as for the graphics, the unit graphics seem recycled and just using the "formation" mod. lol. So maybe it will be possible to "copy past" some.

 

[zoommooz]

Because i think like me, he fears:
1. New Game Engine = slower turns due to incredible system requirements.
2. Slower turns due to awesome mods like ROM AND that will make the game even slower.
3. Wasted time we will be forced to play the vanilla, with its horrible tech tree and "for the masses" gameplay.
4. Usually a game like this with good graphics = neglected AI. Something the Civ franchise lacked form the beginning.
5. Pessimism - after i saw the screenshots and the lack of information... i fear it will just be a beautification of civ4, nothing really more. I fear another civ3 which (subjectively) i think was the worse game of the series and that another game which i will not mention its name was much better even if it had nothing to do with sid.
6. Fear of change - New isn't always better. and unlike AND some of the new features we wont be able to turn off... at least those of us who are not modders.

as for the graphics, the unit graphics seem recycled and just using the "formation" mod. lol. So maybe it will be possible to "copy past" some.

I truly love your point 3. The 'masses' can go an play their button mashing game consoles (not that I haven't). I really hope that CIV 5 is not another HOI 3 fiasco. But looking at the screen shots alone, it is mouth watering.

 

[szemek77]

1. I completely understand Afforess in his statement. I really
wonder why would anybody be surprised about it? I think that
CIV V will be a great and fresh challenge for him and other modders,
so I totally understand his excitement.

2. We have to come to terms with the development of the game we
love, don't we? Does anyone cry for CIV II? Is it reasonable to expect
that anybody would still devote his time to mod CIV I?

3. I think that RoM 2.9 and AND 1.7 would be a great final
version of long and devoted work of Zappara and Afforess.
Even if we won't like CIV 5, nobody will be forced to play it.
From my point of view, even now, when we have RoM 2.81 and
AND 1.6 (almost) we have the game suitable and ready to be
played forever. Well developed, stable and exciting.

4. Similarly to Afforess I think that his experience with RoM
and AND would greatly contribute to achieve success in modding
CIV 5. He has many doors already opened. To say more, starting
to change new release right from the "vanilla" stage could bring
better results than endless tweaking of RoM/AND. Zappara and Afforess
(as well as others) can just separate good ideas from wrong ideas
and would not repeat some mistakes they did during RoM/AND development.

5. There is no reason to expect that CIV 5 would be a crap.
I agree that CIV 3 was no success, but still Sid Meier has
a lot more successes than defeats on his achievement list.
As some of you, I'm also doubtful about some proposed changes
(one tile one unit, religions taken out) but it is not fair
to dismiss then right away.

The only problem I see now would be the hardware/system requirements.
With all the fancy graphics I doubt if some players would have the
chance to play new edition. We will see. As I mentioned, even if CIV 5
goes bad, we would still have CIV 4 to play.

 

[kormer]

On the topic of performance, a game like Civilization is going to be optimized to play as well as possible on their biggest maps with the current generation of CPUs. Imagine going back in time and trying to play AND on the best CPU that was out when Civ4 was first released? You'd never get out of the classical age. Check out the charts below comparing modern CPU's vs. the "state of the art" pentium 4 that dominated when Civ4 was first released.

http://techreport.com/articles.x/18448/8

My point is, I doubt our computers will even be able to handle all the extra stuff a mod like AND would throw at Civ 5 for quite some time.

 

[Ogaburan]

On the topic of performance, a game like Civilization is going to be optimized to play as well as possible on their biggest maps with the current generation of CPUs. Imagine going back in time and trying to play AND on the best CPU that was out when Civ4 was first released? You'd never get out of the classical age. Check out the charts below comparing modern CPU's vs. the "state of the art" pentium 4 that dominated when Civ4 was first released.

http://techreport.com/articles.x/18448/8

My point is, I doubt our computers will even be able to handle all the extra stuff a mod like AND would throw at Civ 5 for quite some time.

Exactly my point.

 

[ggalindo001]

My point is, I doubt our computers will even be able to handle all the extra stuff a mod like AND would throw at Civ 5 for quite some time.

I'm not sure I agree with this. If you simply look at where computing technology has been headed since Civ 4 was released, it has not been in making the core processor faster in terms of mHz, but instead in multi-threading and multi-core processing which does in fact speeds processing tremendously.

When Civ 4 was released, I had a Pentium III 2.8ish Ghz, single core, 2 GB RAM. I have subsequently upgraded to 4 GB RAM, and 1 GB Video. I can run AND reasonably well on this machine. It slows to a crawl as soon as I have anything else running on the machine (video window, internet, etc.) But in standalone mode, it runs almost as well as my Quad Core processor on my new machine -- primarily because the programming engine is not taking advantage of the multi-threaded nature of newer processors. Where my Quad Core kicks rear is in the fact I can run multiple video windows, internet, etc. simultaneously.

It wouldn't surprise me if the high end requirements are all that different, save for the multi-threaded nature, than where we are today. If Civ 5 truly takes advantage of the multi-threaded processing -- well, we are going to see something very slick. I do think the video side will still be difficult to deal with -- and maybe seeing the jump from 1GB to 1.5 or 2GB video -- maybe not.

 

[DocBuchanan]

I would like to bring something up. I think it's important to note that ROM has a following. I found it about a year ago and I haven't stopped playing since. My wife and I have been trying hard to break into modding ROM/AND for quite some time.
Afforess and Zap are very good at their jobs and have risen on the forums as basically the community leaders. There are others. What I'm saying is that there is a core group of people that mod this game. By this point they're all very good at it.
I would hate for Civ V to come out and for them all to go different directions on it. You all need to get together closer to release, and map out a plan. I've already heard the beginnings. Get religion in the game. So... With the resources you have on this forum, you have a complete development team. Graphics, coding, design, testing, leadership. I mean christ they've all posted in this one thread. I think it's important the accepted leaders of this community take stock of the people they have, and start nicely asking and recruiting these people for the most important tasks that will need to get accomplished to get Civ V's ROM off the ground and running as quickly as possible. It might even be worth it to start a thread about finding talent and building a team for this. I offer my services as... moral support

 

[Afforess]

I would like to bring something up. I think it's important to note that ROM has a following. I found it about a year ago and I haven't stopped playing since. My wife and I have been trying hard to break into modding ROM/AND for quite some time.
Afforess and Zap are very good at their jobs and have risen on the forums as basically the community leaders. There are others. What I'm saying is that there is a core group of people that mod this game. By this point they're all very good at it.
I would hate for Civ V to come out and for them all to go different directions on it. You all need to get together closer to release, and map out a plan. I've already heard the beginnings. Get religion in the game. So... With the resources you have on this forum, you have a complete development team. Graphics, coding, design, testing, leadership. I mean christ they've all posted in this one thread. I think it's important the accepted leaders of this community take stock of the people they have, and start nicely asking and recruiting these people for the most important tasks that will need to get accomplished to get Civ V's ROM off the ground and running as quickly as possible. It might even be worth it to start a thread about finding talent and building a team for this. I offer my services as... moral support

Why don't you post this in modding thread, where the rest of them will see this?

 

[kormer]

I'm not sure I agree with this. If you simply look at where computing technology has been headed since Civ 4 was released, it has not been in making the core processor faster in terms of mHz, but instead in multi-threading and multi-core processing which does in fact speeds processing tremendously.

When Civ 4 was released, I had a Pentium III 2.8ish Ghz, single core, 2 GB RAM. I have subsequently upgraded to 4 GB RAM, and 1 GB Video. I can run AND reasonably well on this machine. It slows to a crawl as soon as I have anything else running on the machine (video window, internet, etc.) But in standalone mode, it runs almost as well as my Quad Core processor on my new machine -- primarily because the programming engine is not taking advantage of the multi-threaded nature of newer processors. Where my Quad Core kicks rear is in the fact I can run multiple video windows, internet, etc. simultaneously.

It wouldn't surprise me if the high end requirements are all that different, save for the multi-threaded nature, than where we are today. If Civ 5 truly takes advantage of the multi-threaded processing -- well, we are going to see something very slick. I do think the video side will still be difficult to deal with -- and maybe seeing the jump from 1GB to 1.5 or 2GB video -- maybe not.

Yes, processors have advanced tremendously since Civ 4 was released, but the Civ 5 will add new features that push the limit of what today's processors can do. Them pushing the limits of today's processors in the vanilla game will also effectively push out mods until processors can eclipse what vanilla throws at it.

 

[Grathocke]

Firaxis has promised modders "unprecedented modding tools".

I hear they have a great new system where you say, "Computer, I want such and such," and it is done!

 

[Grathocke]

Since there really hasn't been any technological advances in coding types since Civ4, my guess is that Civ5 is just gunna be a very innovative, fast and pretty-looking Civ4. In other words from Civ1 - Civ2 you had platforming changes. Civ2 - Civ3 you had C++. In Civ3 - Civ4 you had a 3D engine, python and XML. You really can't do too much more from Civ4 - Civ5 except for making the Code more efficient. Yea the graphics look better but that's a given, besides it's still 3D animation (chances are they changed the software they used from 3ds Max to Maya). C++ is still the dominant computer programming language, XML is fairly new so might as well keep it too however the Python might have been replaced (due to so many lag complaints directly related to it) but any code that may be replacing it can easily be learned. So in light of this, plus it's ability to be "highly moddable" I'm guessing that large mods like RevDCM (given vanilla Civ5 doesn't have it) will be released fairly quickly.

Maybe the best thing is that Civ5 will be multi-threading and at least duo-core. That alone could make a big difference.

 

[Grathocke]

If Sid lies to us... back to Civ4 then. But I suspect he won't, every civilization iteration has been better than the last.

I agree there. I've been playing since the original Civ and have thoroughly enjoyed each version as it built on and improved with each iteration. I am really looking forward to Civ5! I just wonder how much they have learned from the modders and what they will include as improvements.

 

[Afforess]

Yes, processors have advanced tremendously since Civ 4 was released, but the Civ 5 will add new features that push the limit of what today's processors can do. Them pushing the limits of today's processors in the vanilla game will also effectively push out mods until processors can eclipse what vanilla throws at it.

Oh come on, what is Civ5, Crysis? It's not going to be that hard on the hardware.

 

[darkedone02]

I will so be getting civ 5 if the mods are good and if it meets my taste or improves it.

 

[DRJ]

Afforess, I have a lot of respect for your accomplishments and drive, and I understand that you'll want to jump into Civ5. Judging from the screenshots it looks graphic intensive, and I suspect some people will continue to play Civ4 for some time. Heck, people still play Civ3 and Civ2 (or derivatives). And there's bound to be a long Good/Bad discussion when Civ5 comes out.

So, I'm trying to encourage you to focus primarily on stability of AND, so that you leave a viable version that requires little maintenance, and also to be ready to work in parallel on AND and Civ5 for a little while if need be.

Yeah, exactly my thoughts.

I also think that I won't buy a new comp for civ5 cause it looks to be VERY Vanilla - means no deeper strategy very little technology/civics/units/religion etc. Everything I like about Rom/AND won't be there. When Civ IV came out I didn't play it for at least 2 years either - only then I found some intriguing mod that provided some depth I was used to in Civ 3.
Problem is, "they" want to sell expansions and want new, broader audiences - audiences that usually play consoles and aren't really into what I call the ultimate strategy game. Their device: keep the dimple simple..

When making the game they should develop various versions, one for beginners, everything very easy to be understood, one medium, more options etc and one for hardcore strategists, 1000 techs etc... omg, yeah thats too much work...
Then they just provide the engine and some overpowered leader animations I REALLY DONT CARE ABOUT and "beautiful" wonder movies that I REALLY DONT CARE ABOUT more than one time... and then my pc cant handle it anymore... great.

I will play CIV 5 someday but I guess I'm gonna be as disappointed as I was with Civ IV - and I really was!

But - thank god Sid! - there will be a civ 5 (sooner or later) and thats maybe good news... Just don't let it be a "Revolutions" clone. The console version turned me down so much I had to vomit reading about it (besides looking at the awful screenies).
The expection to be as frustrated once again lets me want to hug RoM/AND and all I can do is to caress my mouse...

But after all: you'll gonna make this right, Afforess, I am sure of that. Just make it quick...and convert AND to Civ 5!

I also would like to see a CIV5 mod for older systems... that would be terrific to test if you really want to buy a new comp for it.

 

[MrAdam]

Oh come on, what is Civ5, Crysis? It's not going to be that hard on the hardware.

Depends on what your hardware is . Wouldn't some people see improvements because of dual core usage?

Anyways I look forward to zap and aff working together to make some awesome mods

 

[Elucidus]

3.) Only if Firaxis wants us to. I know this occurred with BTS, they got Rhye and Kael beta copies early and they made mods for it. If Firaxis decides to give certain modders advance copies, (*cough*please...Sid*cough*), then yes, Pre-Modding will occur. It's almost entirely up to Firaxis though.

They did this for Civ3 as well, though again for expansions.



I have been itching to get back into the modding game again myself, I enjoy the actual design the most. I have stuck my face in here and there with civ4 over the years, but nothing too serious since Civ3 days. Those were good times, whole teams getting otgether with a common goal. All of the mod teams were well developed by the time I got into Civ4. All I could do at this point for Civ4 was make my own personal minor changes. I look forward to diving in headfirst to modding and especially designing a mod in Civ5

Sorry this is about ROM/AND. I do like the idea of an organized team, we all have similar interests in what we want in a mod, or we wouldn't be here now. We have differing skills as well. Its never too early to begin a team and start throwing design ideas out there, not just what we like about ROM/AND, but some new ones too.

 

[strategyonly]

So true.
Cant wait to see what Affores and Zappara would make.

I know for a fact that Zappara is completely going in a different direction for the next mod he makes.

3.0 should be the last one, but of course small patches.