Stopping the Mohawk Warrior Rush

unless you tech straight to horse... iron then horseback then build horses...
does this not make it a bit late to defend the rush?

The person that used this defense against me skipped iron working when directly to HB riding. then came back and went IW.

And they came out victorious. I tried same defense when I realized iroquis were my very close neighbor next time it happened. works very well.

Game tonight MISHI?
 
Interesting. Question is : does the player can build enough horses before swords coming in territory?

I don't remember if going for HBR is faster than IW. Maybe not, the last patch reduced IW cost. But chance to get horses(especially in cap) are higher.

Upgrading makes all the difference in favor of swords. I think devs should gives an attack bonus for horsemen against (edit)sword units(since they can travel faster, they can dodge attacks easier) because you can't upgrade something to an horsemen.
 
The person that used this defense against me skipped iron working when directly to HB riding. then came back and went IW.

And they came out victorious. I tried same defense when I realized iroquis were my very close neighbor next time it happened. works very well.

Game tonight MISHI?

This strategy has weaks points :

1) Horse doesn't have fields bonus when defending, swords have.
2) You need to hard build them.
3) If the opponent build 2 spears in addition to swords, you are dead. (one can notice that you have horses checking diplo screen + demographics screen, so he can anticipate).
4)
unless you tech straight to horse... iron then horseback then build horses...
does this not make it a bit late to defend the rush?

Imo, you need to have the fields avantage to beat mohawks with horses or maybe greek or Monghol horses.
 
Over 1000 hours of MP time since I first made this post, I have seen that there are some starts where the Mohawk rush will take your capital and there is nothing at all you can do about if the Mohawk rusher knows how to rush. 4 corners w/mountian dividers this happens a lot (with water dividers you have ample time to defend), sometimes in Fractal also. With ruins/CS on, Iroquois will have all the gold they need for upgrades.

Scenario: capitals are very close. Iroquois go straight for iron, you go straight for iron. If you settle a city before you discover IW you might have to make a 3rd city to get iron. If you are making another settler you are not making units and you are not growing.

The Iroquois settle a city ASAP with liberty, and this gets them extra pop to discover iron before you (if you are waiting with your settler to discover iron), and they can make more warriors right away (delay monument.) The moment they pop iron they upgrade warriors (and are making more.)

Then you discover iron and you have do escort a settler to the iron spot (meaning 1 less defender at capital.) It takes several turns to settle on the iron, during that time your warriors have been killed at your capital by Mohawks, you have nothing to upgrade. If you have been making spears then you are outnumbered and the spears will end up dying anyhow (warriors take less production than spears and their warriors=Mohawks.)

Get archers? teching archery delays iron even that much longer. Horsemen? Pikes? You don't last that long. Build a barracks for promotions? Then you have several less units.

NOTE: if there is some super-creative way to stop the Mohawks in this scenario, I am all ears.
 
Only One way: guess where your iron from strategic balanced is and improved it before you have Iron working. Sometimes it is obvious, Only one or two hills near your capital, sometime it is not! I would proceed like this:

- Dont move at the beginning unless you are sure of not losing your iron. Iron is 2 tiles away from your cap on a hill. If you can settle on a hill, and be sure you dont lose your iron this is perfect because you may have it under your capital.
- You need to build a worker before building settlers. Priorize mining with your worker.
- Go pressure the Iroquois with your initial warrior and a scout
- Implore of the Spirit of Great Bear to intervene on your behalf
 
Games are not always set to strategic or balance ressources. You may not have iron at all otherwise.

If i start next to Iroquois and have not strategic or balance ressources enabled, i might want to do an archers rush. 4 archers before turn 25 is possible and you don't use your gold for upgrades. Stay at defence mode and expand more if possible.
 
Games are not always set to strategic or balance ressources. You may not have iron at all otherwise.

If i start next to Iroquois and have not strategic or balance ressources enabled, i might want to do an archers rush. 4 archers before turn 25 is possible and you don't use your gold for upgrades. Stay at defence mode and expand more if possible.

Interesting thought, but if they are Mohawk rushing then they have several warriors already, which can stop those archers.
 
Games are not always set to strategic or balance ressources. You may not have iron at all otherwise.

If i start next to Iroquois and have not strategic or balance ressources enabled, i might want to do an archers rush. 4 archers before turn 25 is possible and you don't use your gold for upgrades. Stay at defence mode and expand more if possible.

In my game, ressours are always in start balance: I am a Leaguer!

In other game, I do sometimes NQ, they are not start balance. But the iroquois does not rush you in such game (FFA) : because, if they do so, they become underdevloped and lose against peaceful tech-machine. At least, they dont go straight to Iron.
In duel, you know where your opponent is, you dont care about devlopment because you are only 2.
 
In my game, ressours are always in start balance: I am a Leaguer!

In other game, I do sometimes NQ, they are not start balance. But the iroquois does not rush you in such game (FFA) : because, if they do so, they become underdevloped and lose against peaceful tech-machine. At least, they dont go straight to Iron.
In duel, you know where your opponent is, you dont care about devlopment because you are only 2.

Yeah there is some situations and thoughts about the diplo screen telling you that a neighbor Iroquois may stay peaceful in FFAs but i ensure you that going full military being Iroquois and the possibility to rush immediately has pretty large benefits even in open games.

About archers, you need a good land to defend too. There is some games were you are doomed no matter what.
 
This is tricky! It Is Remind me a duel between merle and rdone. Merle comment was : "i had iroquois, he tought I am going to rush him. He prepare for that BUT I wonder rush, out develop him, and win! GG! "
Iroqouis are nasty in so many ways :)
 
In my game, ressours are always in start balance: I am a Leaguer!

In other game, I do sometimes NQ, they are not start balance. But the iroquois does not rush you in such game (FFA) : because, if they do so, they become underdevloped and lose against peaceful tech-machine. At least, they dont go straight to Iron.
In duel, you know where your opponent is, you dont care about devlopment because you are only 2.

I disagree - a puppet empire is the best investment you can make. Extra science, gold and culture without increasing cost of future policies. In FFA games you can puppet your neighbor and a few city states, then go back to becoming a peaceful tech-machine. If a second civ is unprepared I would go after them, but often it is my empire + 4 extra puppets (neighbor often has capital+1, I take 2 city states with unique luxes.)

My fastest science wins have been where I puppet early, then switch to science.
 
Played against another Mohawk rush yesterday. Was playing as France and wondering as much as I could. Built Great Wall though and teched Horseback riding. My couple of archers weakened the mohawks and my horses hit and ran killing the mohawks. I bribed a civ of someone who had quit to attack him, distracting him, and then I teched Chivalry crushing his civ.
 
Over 1000 hours of MP time since I first made this post, I have seen that there are some starts where the Mohawk rush will take your capital and there is nothing at all you can do about if the Mohawk rusher knows how to rush. 4 corners w/mountian dividers this happens a lot (with water dividers you have ample time to defend), sometimes in Fractal also. With ruins/CS on, Iroquois will have all the gold they need for upgrades.

Scenario: capitals are very close. Iroquois go straight for iron, you go straight for iron. If you settle a city before you discover IW you might have to make a 3rd city to get iron. If you are making another settler you are not making units and you are not growing.

The Iroquois settle a city ASAP with liberty, and this gets them extra pop to discover iron before you (if you are waiting with your settler to discover iron), and they can make more warriors right away (delay monument.) The moment they pop iron they upgrade warriors (and are making more.)

Then you discover iron and you have do escort a settler to the iron spot (meaning 1 less defender at capital.) It takes several turns to settle on the iron, during that time your warriors have been killed at your capital by Mohawks, you have nothing to upgrade. If you have been making spears then you are outnumbered and the spears will end up dying anyhow (warriors take less production than spears and their warriors=Mohawks.)

Get archers? teching archery delays iron even that much longer. Horsemen? Pikes? You don't last that long. Build a barracks for promotions? Then you have several less units.

NOTE: if there is some super-creative way to stop the Mohawks in this scenario, I am all ears.

too much theorycrafting, if u are worried about getting rushed there are allways 2 options: 1. build only huge cities 2. build away from rusher. caps can be rushed very unlicky if defended well.

also there ll allways be like 10 tiles between opp and u. thats 5 turns thats about as long as u need to work/settle iron

Played against another Mohawk rush yesterday. Was playing as France and wondering as much as I could. Built Great Wall though and teched Horseback riding. My couple of archers weakened the mohawks and my horses hit and ran killing the mohawks. I bribed a civ of someone who had quit to attack him, distracting him, and then I teched Chivalry crushing his civ.

good "rushers" kill u before u build gw (ie turn 30-35)
 
Was multiplayer with 6 people on Pangea. He conquered a civ slightly closer to him first, and then I held off his initial attack. I had GW by like turn 37. Not hard chopping down some forests.
 
GW is indeed possible by turn 37-40 with good starting pos. Problem is that it hurt to get it that early. Masonry will deley IW a bit (since u ll have to take it first to get it that early. + your cap will be ocupied with wonder insted of settlers.

I guess it depends on map type somehwat. Scirmish = allways iron = get IW build swords. fortify on none forest tiles. chop forest on some trategical tiles.

Pangea = depends on distance, but Id say Iw is still the best solution and prey for IW tile not to faar away to place settler on.

I d say best uniersal solution is to go for IW, chop forrest around cities. Keep fortified units on none forest tiles + backup unis behind them so that u l never leave a wounded mohawk alive.
 
Mohawk rushes are the equivalent to HC / Incas of the Civ IV world. Cheezy and worthy of kicking from the lobby. Go play Starcraft. I know this is like outlawing Zerg from MP games in Starcraft. Yes its unfair, but it ends up being more fun for all people involved.

Most MP games I play on outlaw Iroquois / France and in some cases Mongols just to make it fair (and more fun). OR if people whine enough to keep these civs we allow those civs but then do a 3v3 split map team game with France and Iroquois on opposite teams.

As long as your teammates are relatively decent at the game, its easy to counter a mohawk rush if your teammates got your back and you COMMUNICATE effectively.

I'm a decent, but not great warmonger, but one hell of a economic powerhouse if I go Egypt. Best synnergy game I played (with complete strangers funny enough) was an Egypt, Rome and France combo against a Persian, Iroquois and German opposing team. They tried all that unit swapping bonus stuff but we still prevailed in the end. France had the misfortune of being the front line civ on the great plains, but was a skilled player and great on defense and getting that second city up real fast. I had lots of horses near my capital (no iron - surprise, surprise) and just spammed chariot archers and gave my horses to france who built horsemen and archers. The real star of the show was Rome though because he got a two iron sources near his cities and spammed Legionnaires. Anybody can spam Legionnaires I know. But this guy went NUTS with building roads everywhere with them which is a fantabulous advantage in MP games that a lot of players overlook. In Under 30 turns all our cities were interconnected and I had a 5-6 highly upgraded chariot archer rapid response team that could supplement the French/Roman front lines. I know my chariot archers suck relative to Immortals and Iroquois, but are cheap to build and invaluable when you have lots of roads in an empire. Once I inevitably got Hanging Gardens, the game was pretty much over as I spammed workers and improved my allies cities as they dedicated themselves fully to war.

Long story short, Iroqois rushes are nigh impossible to defeat against a skilled player. But if a player in a lobby insists on taking them, ask to do a team game to balance it out. If they insist on going FFA, then votekick their cheezeball asses.

I know there are a lot of what-ifs in the above game, but the Mohawks and Immortals died in droves. Oh and Legionnaires absolutely devastate Immortals. I don't know how based on their strength comparison but they do.
 
Mohawk rushes are the equivalent to HC / Incas of the Civ IV world. Cheezy and worthy of kicking from the lobby. Go play Starcraft. I know this is like outlawing Zerg from MP games in Starcraft. Yes its unfair, but it ends up being more fun for all people involved.

Most MP games I play on outlaw Iroquois / France and in some cases Mongols just to make it fair (and more fun). OR if people whine enough to keep these civs we allow those civs but then do a 3v3 split map team game with France and Iroquois on opposite teams.

As long as your teammates are relatively decent at the game, its easy to counter a mohawk rush if your teammates got your back and you COMMUNICATE effectively.

I'm a decent, but not great warmonger, but one hell of a economic powerhouse if I go Egypt. Best synnergy game I played (with complete strangers funny enough) was an Egypt, Rome and France combo against a Persian, Iroquois and German opposing team. They tried all that unit swapping bonus stuff but we still prevailed in the end. France had the misfortune of being the front line civ on the great plains, but was a skilled player and great on defense and getting that second city up real fast. I had lots of horses near my capital (no iron - surprise, surprise) and just spammed chariot archers and gave my horses to france who built horsemen and archers. The real star of the show was Rome though because he got a two iron sources near his cities and spammed Legionnaires. Anybody can spam Legionnaires I know. But this guy went NUTS with building roads everywhere with them which is a fantabulous advantage in MP games that a lot of players overlook. In Under 30 turns all our cities were interconnected and I had a 5-6 highly upgraded chariot archer rapid response team that could supplement the French/Roman front lines. I know my chariot archers suck relative to Immortals and Iroquois, but are cheap to build and invaluable when you have lots of roads in an empire. Once I inevitably got Hanging Gardens, the game was pretty much over as I spammed workers and improved my allies cities as they dedicated themselves fully to war.

Long story short, Iroqois rushes are nigh impossible to defeat against a skilled player. But if a player in a lobby insists on taking them, ask to do a team game to balance it out. If they insist on going FFA, then votekick their cheezeball asses.

I know there are a lot of what-ifs in the above game, but the Mohawks and Immortals died in droves. Oh and Legionnaires absolutely devastate Immortals. I don't know how based on their strength comparison but they do.

come to www.civplayers.com steam chat for more awesome 3v3 games in which no one quits :)
 
just on the immortal point, i find that its nice to worker steal with one then fortify it in rough out of los of the city so it only takes bombards. you can farm up xp for an extra great general while you tech to mathematics, use your iron on catapults becaurse immortals dont need it. then you blow the extra general on the turn before you engage giving you 3 move catapults and alowing you to move, setup and fire on the same turn.

not exactly as dangerous as a mohawk rush but a cool little timing you can hit as persia
 
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