Storm Over Europe (SOE)

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Completed Scenarios' started by Civinator, Feb 24, 2012.

  1. Civinator

    Civinator Blue Lion Supporter

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    AnthonyBoscia, thank you very much for your great report and your very kind words about SOE. :)

    I also used those gaps in the border-terrain to Russia, that´s why I made them. :devil:
    As tests showed, Russia in 1940 with the dumbed down airforce, becomes an too early victim of the blitzkrieg. Those gaps were good to stop the AI, but not for a human player, who throws every unit through that gap. That´s why in the SOE betatest biq v1.2, I closed the gaps around Tarnopol. Now the Axis units with the wheeled flag, that are not upgraded by the AI, must take the route through the Baltic States or Romania, to fight in Russia (and the Russians, too).

    In the early times of SOE, this scenario had a regimental setting. All infantry units were regiments (with their correct names) and all tanks had company size. The advantage was, that some of the special units, that were only produced in small numbers or small sized units could be adapted better in the game. On the other side with this setting , we ran into the MUA during gameplay in times when we didn´t know, that a MUA exists and the AI turntimes were astronomically high. That´s why some starting units were combined to divisions.

    The tankcompanies in SOE are remainders of this setting. They can be upgraded to tankbataillons (for Germany at least since biq v1.2). There were voices who said in early WW 2, that a tank equals 300 men. With such a calculation a tank company can battle a foot regiment. But the real reason for tank companies is, that they allow to introduce tanks to the game, that were only produced in small numbers. The setting for SOE would have been much more easy and much less work, if limiting it to some core units in division or corps size, but the philosophy in SOE was, to use as many of the different units that were done by Wyrmshadow and other unit-creators, even if this complicates doing such a scenario a lot.

    Sea lion at present is only a resource at the British coast to mark the land terrain that looks like sea.

    AnthonyBoscia, I really enjoyed your report and this report -and also the reports of other gamers - help to improve the game. :)
     
  2. Civinator

    Civinator Blue Lion Supporter

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    Sasebo, thank you very much for your report.

    Yes, the first turns are very long. If you have an older pc, may be it´s agood idea to disable all graphical settings after your turn.

    On my pc with an i7 CPU, 2,8 GHz and 6 GB ram, the AI turntime (turn 1) of SOE betatest v1.2 is as following:

    Germany and than all graphics disabled but battle graphics: 36 minutes

    I also made a test-biq with all Italian and French immobile units set to mobile and all civs set to AI and all graphical settings disabled: 23 minutes for complete turn 1.


    Your report shows that the Finish navy works as it should be. :)

    The starting position would be really awful, if you would fight against a human opponent. But you only fight against the AI. Even in many AI vs AI testgames, the Russian AI was not able to make great progress in Finland in 1939/1940.

    The 75 howitzers have stealth attack with set targets. But you need at least two set targets in a stack, to perform a stealth attack. The 105 Howitzer has no set stealth attack targets yet. As this means to do more than 1,000 entries in the editor for the setting of the stealth attack of that unit and at present I don´t have the time for it, I will remove the 105 Howitzer with 75 howitzers in the next biq.


    I tried to give the ships their real names and (if possible their real positions at the start of WW 2. If you say, Louhi, is the name of an evil witch, I have learned something here. I knew that the Finns hada ship named Louhi, but I didn´t know about the meaning of the name.

    As said, Finnland had one ship named Louhi -not two. It seems I have double placed that ship by error (I had the same problem with some Italian ships, but this corrected now). In the next biq one Louhi is deleted. Thank you very much for reporting this error. :)

    I think it´s great, if the AI is able to do some "tricks" that are not cheating. :)


    I didn´t obeserve this yet. Can it be a problem of your graphic card? Please post ascrrenshot if possible.


    Those gaps were intended in that version of the SOE betatest biq. The gaps were for AI units that are not upgraded by the AI to pass the border-terrain. Border-terrain can´t be crossed by units with the "wheeled"-flag. In later versions of the SOE civilopedia I will include a hint, if a unit can cross border-terrain. As a rule of thumb: All German unit that beome available in early 1941 can cross that terrain and all Russian units that become available in late 1941 can cross it, too. Polish units always can cross this terrain without problems. Alpine units can always cross border-terrain.
     
  3. AnthonyBoscia

    AnthonyBoscia Emperor

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    Operations continue. The Soviets have lost control of the battlefield and I'm really tearing through. They piecemeal away their best units like the KV heavy tanks. I seized Moscow, and then widened the area around it. The Baltic States put up a great fight but couldn't withstand two powers, and now they are down to Estonia. In the Ukraine, the main obstacle has been my Axis 'friends' who block all the roads with their silly Ansaldo POS's and Romanian claptraps. Every time the Soviets tried to build 'Russian Mobilization', I would capture the city building it. This happened until it went obsolete in late 1941 and was never built. I took Kazan right before they could make the Siberian wonder. Pressing the attack mercilessly, and now I'm amassing forces for attacks on Stalingrad and Leningrad next turn (end of 1941). Good timing because the Barbarossa wonder runs out next turn.

    Spoiler :


    In the West it has been a brawl. I figured out how to do Sea Lion. My engineers can build a road on the Sea Lion special terrain, so I built a big stack of them and sent them over. Also, the Top Gun Panzer IV (G211 PzKW IV F1) does not have the wheeled flag, so I made a stack of these to protect the workers and built a road to Dover! Once I took Dover, the hornets' nest was stirred and the Brits threw the kitchen sink at me. I used the Supply depot Airlift power to throw as much junk as possible to prevent being overrun. 15 cm artillery, SS troops, Gebirgs divisions, screaming meemies, flamethrowers, panzerfausten, fallshirmjaeger troops, even the 142nd Special Messkit Repair Battalion. They couldn't take it back. From there it was all about widening the beachhead and counterattacking. The Brits have plenty of tank companies and artillery but I was able to whittle them down over 1941. Also, my navy provides shore bombardment. The Spitfires are quite a threat so I had to settle with just overwhelming them and suffering some losses. I even dropped 4 parachute regiments along a key road in the hills north of Southampton. They took heavy casualties but managed to tie up a great deal of enemy forces, which bought enough time for the capture of London. The Bulldog's in big trouble, now.

    Spoiler :


    Other areas have been fairly stagnant. North Africa has seen little progress, but they are the lowest priority. Spain declared war on Italy so I have been holding off their attacks in southern France. No attempts at counterattack until I have the main enemies under control. I'm still fighting for Norway, although most of the big cities have fell. What a pain in the neck. :) The war at sea is fairly quiet, and I even have a nice new French-made battleship. Thank you, my little Vichy friends, now go slaughter my enemies. :devil:

    It's still a lot of fun and thinking that after total victory my next game might be as the British. It's also great reading Sasebo's and Gosnork's comments.

    I attached a new version of the City screen background. It had some palette issues which caused the resources to dissappear from the screen. This new version should work better.

    More to come!
     

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  4. Civinator

    Civinator Blue Lion Supporter

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    Wow AnthonyBoscia, what a great story! :thumbsup::clap:

    A road to Dover! :eek: This was not intended, but a great strategy! :) It seems for players like you, I have to implement the GrÖFaZ-Victory even in the betatest-version. In my test game with Germany and the gap at the Russian border, the Russians also always were one step too late, but with biq 1.2 this is no longer possible.

    In the next biq the terrain near Dover must be set so no road can be built any longer. :spear:

    And thank you very much for the corrected interface file. :)
     
  5. Civinator

    Civinator Blue Lion Supporter

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    Thank you very much for reporting the error and your story about SOE. :)

    The most important reason of the convoy resource is, that this resource is needed in the UK and other countries to gain units from autoproducing buildings. If there is no connection to the resource, than there is no autoproduction of units in that turn by buildings that need this resource.

    Shipping between the UK and US/Canada is not the main-reason for the shipping-lanes. May be a reverse capture the flag-option will be tested later with SOE. El Justo resumed, that maps with a size bigger than 180x180 had problems with this option, especially when alliances were activated. But with the shrinked map, may be it will make sense. As said, this must be tested. :)
     
  6. Civinator

    Civinator Blue Lion Supporter

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    cemo1956, thank you very much for your very kind words. :) I also would like to play SOE in retirement, but it is a long time, until I can achieve this (if ever). :D

    Please don´t forget, this is a public betatest and some settings in SOE will be changed and hopefully improved during this betatest, but I agree, in some ways SOE is a kind of a milestone in modding Civ 3, but a milestone is not enough - in my eyes we need the road. :D

    And cemo1956, you are right with the different forum. When I joined the SOE-team, we were at CDG (Creative Design Group). :)
     
  7. Civinator

    Civinator Blue Lion Supporter

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    Thank you for kind post pvincent100. :) I hope you can give us a report, about your SOE-games to find bugs and errors and to improve gameplay.
     
  8. jlvfr

    jlvfr King

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    Just downloaded this cenario, and am starting the french. One question, which I couldn't find the answer: why are most french ships stuck in port? Can't sail half the fleet :(
     
  9. texastarheel

    texastarheel Chieftain

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    you will have to wait until after june 1940 for operations in the Med, as was historical. Texs
     
  10. jlvfr

    jlvfr King

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    Drat, I wanted to start skinking italians ASAP :)
     
  11. texastarheel

    texastarheel Chieftain

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    lol, you will get the chance
     
  12. jlvfr

    jlvfr King

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    Sooo... been testing with french, but noticed some anomalies and decided to do some checking. (note, I've only played 5 rounds, so all this relates

    -what is the "Torch Landing site" and why is it filled with US units? and why all the US units at start, in Africa?

    -towed artillery moving as fast as tanks; why?...

    -Dora gun available to germans at start?

    -why is the ME-109E Better than the Spitfire?

    -afaik, the Brits didn't have any US armor at start of war; so where did the 2 M2A4 came from?

    -german tanks as strong or stronger than the french B1-bis or the Somua S35. this is very wrong. The B1 is pretty much invulnerable to german AT weapons, with the Somua being only slightly weaker, whereas their 47mm could turn any german tank into a pile of junk. And yet here we have the B1 with stats of 3.1.3, and the PzIII as 3.2.3. Short of the soviet KV, the B1 was the toughest tank in the world, with the Somua close behind. But in the cenario, the german tanks are superior to these french models, which is simply not true

    To reflect reality I'd suggest (at start of war)
    KV - 4.5.2
    B1 - 4.4.2
    Somua & UK Matilda - 4.3.3
    PzIII/Pz35-38, BT series & similar tanks - 3.2.4
    PzIV - 3.3.2

    To reflect the german's strong points, I suggest making all the tank units veterans, and giving them 1-2 extra HP points, with any french units allready in play only regular.
     
  13. pvincent100

    pvincent100 Chieftain

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    Hi, this is a superb game.

    I would suggest of changing the startup diplomacy settings to reflect Sept 1939.

    I would have everyone at peace, except the Russians and Germany - both attacking Poland. Poland not aligned to anyone. I would also have Russians/Germans in a mutual protection pact, but no right of passage (which was pretty much the case)

    THis I think would reflect the more actual position of England/France/Germany/Russians/Poland at the start of Sept 1939, if in deed, if not in words. France's and England's declaration of war had no bearing on the outcome of Poland and they didn't raise a finger (well hardly)... Germany needs a little bit of time to marshall their Forces West - the Russians need a little bit of time to start conquering the Baltic States/Finland and rebuild their forces after the purges.... - plus it would also enable Germany to (possibly) mount a surprise attack at the time of their choosing when they go after the Russians.

    This would also allow Germany some time to roll up Poland and head West to launch a 'surprise' attack on France (and maybe even the English) and the Low Countries. It also allows for the Italians to do something foolish and attach the French in Africa and start a war anyway.

    One of the the things I love about Civ3 is its 'weak' diplomacy - friends one minute, sworn enemies he next
     
  14. Civinator

    Civinator Blue Lion Supporter

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    Hi jlvfr, if you want to do some checking about units in SOE, you must do the checking with the editor, otherwise you will miss some important facts. Thank you very much for your input. :)

    SOE contains many great military operations of WW2. One of these operations was Operation Torch. Here you can read more about it (so I think the civilopedia entry for Operation Torch is done for SOE): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Torch
    BTW.: The flag-resources for Operation Torch are only placeholders for a UK/US flag-resource.



    As the American East Coast was cut out of the SOE-map, this is one of the oportunities to bring the WW 2 US units Wyrmshadow made, into gameplay.

    A unit in SOE is not a truck or a tank, but a military formation. SOE contains some preplaced immobile historical formations with mostly poor unit stats, that are upgraded (even by the AI!) to mobile formations with their real unit stats for reasons of gameplay when they entered the theatre of war in history. These upgraded units frequently can cross terrain, that other units can´t cross and allow that there is some action on the map (mostly about the time when it really happened in WW 2) that otherwise wouldn´t be sure to happen (per example the DAK and the US units in North Africa). If you reach the locations with these units before they took action in WW2 you can knock them out more easily than when they are upgraded. At present the civilopedia frequently don´t posts, that a unit is immobile. This will be changed in later versions o the civilopedia during the SOE betatesting. You can recognize immobile (future) units as these units mostly have an asterisk behind their unit type. In the screenshot above this is marked by a blue circle.

    May be you can remember from CCM, that MV 2 of an artillery doesn´t mean, that this unit always can move two tiles. In fact in terrain without road, these artillery units can only move 1 tile because the movement costs of almost any terrain in SOE (as in CCM) is risen drastically and means, that a unit without a movement bonus for that terrain mostly moves as if it would move on top of a mountain in standard Civ 3. The MV-2setting of artillery allows artillery in SOE to retreat from attacking MV-1 units and therefore to do a performance of these units by the AI, that comes closer to the performance intended for land-artillery in Civ 3, but never worked for the AI cause of a wrong artifical routine programmed for land-artillery by Firaxis.

    So the movement for towed artillery cross terrain without roads is mostly 1 tile per turn. Less would mean, that the unit is immobile.

    This differs, when the artillery is moved on roads/railroads. SOE has the speciality that it has no railroads as they are used in standard Civ 3, but the roads in SOE symbolize the most important parts of the railways-net of that time. If artillery is transported by trains it can reach the speed of the train. Of course one can say, why does a MV-3 tank move faster on a railroad than a MV-2 artillery, but this are limitations of the CIV 3 engine and if you know how to overcome this, please let me know.

    This is another preplaced immobile unit that can be upgraded later to a mobile unit. There exists only one single unit. The unit can´t be built normally and also is not autoproduced. The single Dora is in game, as it was a lot of work to do that unit and in my eyes it would have been a pitty if it is not in SOE. This single Dora doesn´t cause distortions in gameplay.



    jlvfr, as you can see, a unit in SOE is not a single tank, but a military formation. A tank without a crew, ammunition, logistics, proper doctrin and so on is like a stone in the landscape. It is next to worthless in the sense of military operations.

    The unit stats of landunits in SOE are taken and compared in relations from some famous WW 2 games and the results were compared to the performance these units gave in reality in WW 2. Of course with more than 1,000 different units there can be (and there are) conflicts in comparing these units and the SOE betaesting can fix them - but in my eyes the stats of the early French tank formations are not set wrong (and here is to add, that these early French tank units also lack the Blitz-option). The reason is, that these early French tankunits in WW 2 were not known well for mostly doing an overwhelming good job.

    A solution with an inflation of hitpoints (HPs) given to a unit as it is done in many other scenarios, comes in conflict with some principal settings of SOE. In SOE additional HPs, especially for landunits, are avoided whenever possible. The mainreason therefore is the special setting of landartillery in SOE so the AI can handle it. The small working part of the artifical routine programmed for landartillery by Firaxis is the defensive bombardement, when the landartillery is part of a defending stack of landunits. The defensive bombardement can cause a maximum damage of 1 HP. This means, the less HPs a landunit has, the more damage can be done by the working part of the artifical routine of landartillery units. If an antitank-gun whipes out 2/3 of a HP of an attacking tankunit, this is a much bigger damage to the tankunit if this unit has only 2 HPs as if it would have 6 HPs (or more). The other reason to avoid additional HPs whenever possible is to cut down battlerounds a little bit, as turntims in SOE are still long (and in the early turns very long).

    In early phases of constructing SOE, Rocoteh kindly allowed the SOE Team, to use the unit stats of WW 2 Global for developping SOE. Later these unit stats were replaced by own unit stats. First the landunits, then the seaunits and the last should have been the airunits. Before replacing the stats of the airunits, we noticed, that the AI with the old Rocoteh settings and the new settings for land- and sea-units built up airforces in a big style, what was a problem in many other scenarios. Therefore we left the settings for airunits as they were with the exception of bombardement and range values.

    I can only guess, why Rocoteh gave a minimal advantage for the early Me-109 to the early Spitfire of 11A, 8D, 2 HPs to 10A, 8D, 2 HPs of the Spitfire. May be the German fighter pilots had a small plus of experience from their fighting in Spain.
     

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  15. AnthonyBoscia

    AnthonyBoscia Emperor

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    Be advised that since LM terrain like desert, grassland, and plains have only 1 movement cost compared to the regular 3, artillery can move 2 spaces per turn in enemy territory by staying off the roads. I'm not sure if that reduced movement cost was there for some other purpose, but it sure helps to blitz faster.
     
  16. Civinator

    Civinator Blue Lion Supporter

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    AnthonyBoscia, thank you very much for reporting this not intended setting. This error is fixed now, as it is with the movement costs for some other LM-terrain. :)
     
  17. guygodbois

    guygodbois critically acclaimed

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    To Mr Civinator
    By Jove! This looks simply stunning: units, map, ideas, everything. Unfortunately, for a number of reasons (internet monthly quota, intensively playing your Civ Conquest Mod, to name a few) I will not be downloading this bag of goodness until the start of the April.
    Will post my experience with it then.
    As long as there are creative gentlemen like you, Mr Civinator, there is much to be had out of Civilization 3 yet.
    Best wishes

    And now to ALT-TAB to my game of Mayan world conquest in CCM...
     
  18. AnthonyBoscia

    AnthonyBoscia Emperor

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    Well, I think my German game is about finished in Fall 1942. Meinen Soldaten have blitzkrieged their way from Glasgow to Grozny. Once the Allied back was broken in late 1941, victory was assured. After the penetration to Moscow, my forces split essentially into three army groups. Both Leningrad and Stalingrad were captured June 1941, while the Center group reached the Urals by early '42. The Italians and Bulgarians continued to get in the way down south but captured some key cities in the Ukraine, while resistance in the Crimea was grueling. In Britain, after the fall of London, the steamroller couldn't be stopped and every turn was an advance. The Royal Navy was smashed, and three USN battleships were savaged by air attacks. My forces in north and south Norway finally linked up in 1942, but the country remains unconquered. I even made a nice treaty with the Irish.

    (Not Ireland's finest hour)
    Spoiler :


    With the monarchy moved to Canada, the Anglo-Americans sue for a separate peace. Alexandria had fallen and Cairo becomes a German protectorate. Russian forces will continue to fight a guerilla war for years to come. Although I wanted to see some of the late game technologies, it's time to call it quits as my turns mostly involve a few battles and much shifting of units. Often it can be difficult to stick it out to the official end, since I require many more victory points, so we'll celebrate with a parade.

    Spoiler :


    A few thoughts and suggestions:

    Mussolini small leaderhead has magenta background and needed reindexed. This is for the Art>Advisors folder. I attached a new one at the end of the post.

    The locked alliances are simply called Alliance 1, 2, 3, 4. Perhaps, Axis, Western Allies, etc. might be nice?

    There's an extra space open at Suez that allows non-British traffic into North Africa. I spent a lot of time fighting the French. Is this something you might want to close off?

    War weariness became a serious problem by 1942, even with luxuries maxed out at 50%. What's wrong with these people, don't they enjoy living in occupied Europe? I spent a lot of the late game dealing with all the revolts and unhappiness. While I can understand keeping this approach (as opposed to a game like AOI, for instance, which chooses to remove the resistance), have you considered adding more improvements to deal with this? I remember Barbarossa II had the 'Summary Execution' (with a gallows graphic!) that added happiness to new cities. I can understand if the SOE team would like keep things more family-friendly :) (e.g. not having an Einsatzgruppen improvement) but maybe a Gestapo HQ or Reich Commissariat might be appropriate. Just a thought.

    The Battle for the Atlantic was very quiet after the initial naval battle. I saw very little coming from Canada or the U.S. and my U-boat crews were picking their noses. One thing that is different from a game such as WW2 Global is that fleets are not arriving from faraway parts of the map. I can remember defeating the Royal Navy at Scapa Flow but a year later huge forces arrived from India and the Pacific. First I'd like to play as Britain and see their autoproduction before forming an opinion.

    Speaking of Britain, I not only got the French Battleship but two King George V's! But also, I was able to autoproduce British commandos, spitfires, Russian tank battalions, etc. Have you though of making these improvements go obsolete with a non-era German technology, à la MEM? I can understand the Germans capturing a half-built battleship, but the British commandos seemed funny. :)

    The game overall is excellent and you and the team have done a fine job. I'll try the Brits or the Soviets next with the new version. Looking forward to finally having tank battalions! Great work and I hope I can provide some more feedback to help the cause.
     

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  19. Civinator

    Civinator Blue Lion Supporter

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    pvincent100, thank you very much for your input to SOE. :)

    Unfortunately in C3C only alliances can be preset. Gameplay could be set to give only Germany and Russia the tech that is needed to form a mutual protection pact, but if the AI really will do this, is quite another point.

    So alliances are the only possibility to set the behaviour of the civs as it should be. A game without war (with the exception of Poland as you suggested) would be somewhat boring, the same if the most important conflicts would be stopped after 20 turns. In the long history of SOE a lot was written about alliances and related stuff, there were complicated systems with many war-triggers using the sub-bug (p.e. there was a time when most of Greenland was digged with war-trigger-paths), but all these systems had their massive flaws. Even the current mixture of preset alliances and border-terrain has its backsides, but overall it was the best solution I could find to provide most fun to the player and not to always perform completely unhistorical.
     
  20. Civinator

    Civinator Blue Lion Supporter

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    guygodbois, thank you very much for your very kind words about CCM and SOE. :)

    Other than CCM, which had a lot of intensive prebetatesting, the current version of SOE nearly had no prebetatesting before it was posted. So in April may be there will be a better version of SOE, depending to the input, reports and hints I receive here and in other forums during the betatesting of SOE.
     

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