STR-03 Viking Traders

Asperger said:
If we intend to attack Delhi and/or Djenne in the near future, we can use him there for the shrine.

I would vote against another war with Mali soon. We have mauled him beyond recovery and for now he serves nicely as a buffer to Tokugawa.
I also wouldn't want to attack Asoka just yet. Thanks to the religious bonuses he is a very good friend and a great trading partner. We will need to keep an eye on him and may need to do a 'pre-emptive strike' when the Space Race starts.
 
I would either settle the prophet or save him for a golden age (prefer that) but lightbulbing is rather pointless. He would give theology and if we have that divine right nothing really useful. Also after the GL our capitol will give us a GS sooner or later and we will probably pick up the free merchant from economics. Though it might be more fitting to use him for a trade mission.

And I would advise against war right now. We are in the drivers seat, #1 in land(or close), pop, GNP, prod and food. So maybe after we get our UU and trebs but not right now. Plus theres no real target except Huayna or backstabbing Asoka which I think would be pretty cheap and easy.

/e: And permanent alliances are enabled so maybe Asoka can assist in a nice space race. ;) (would imho be more fun than hammering any contender into the ground)
 
875 (0): I'm switching research to Monarchy as hardly anyone has it and it will be useful for trading. I hope!

890 (1): We build the Great Library.

905 (2): Chichen Itza is BIDL. Discover Monarchy and revolt to Heredity Rule. HC offers HBR plus some bucks for it. I decline. Instead I start a shopping tour myself and go for Divine Right giving something to do for our GP, but see yourself:

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Now our techs are outdated again :lol: Ah ... I forgot something important:

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935 (4): Start the Sistine Chapel in Nidaros just to build something :rolleyes:

950 (5): HC offers Sugar for our Cows. Sure.

995 (8): With the help of our Great Prophet we discover Divine Right. And please welcome the holy city of Islam, Birka :band: ... oh lord ... cumbaya! Our first Missionary goes to Timbuktu for the cultural battle against India. Civil Service is next in tech schedule. Negotiating with Tokugawa we get Dyes and 3gpt for Ivory.

1040 (11): Our missionary fails on his mission in Timbuktu :mad: We should plan a little bit on this. For us traders it could be very profitable with a Shrine now that we have our state religion.

1100 (15): Civil Service (I deferred it for discussion) comes in next turn. The tech leader is HC. But we lead in GNP which seams important to me :D

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I did some trading. Hope this will bring us forward a little. :hammer:

Forward ever, backwards never :king:
 
It's looking good:).

Roster:
1) Strauss
2) Pvblivs --> just played
3) karr1255
4) Bede --> UP!
5) Asperger --> on deck

With Birka being the Islam Holy City, does going for a Cultural Victory sound possible? Nidaros and Uppsala have some wonders and are capable of building more.
 
Got it for tomorrow. Nice bit o' horsetrading, Publius :thumbsup: !

I think the Space Race allied with Asoka and with Mansa as our vassal would be fun, but can I have some boats and berzerks and trebs to go hurt Toku? Or somebody, anybody?

And I'll see what I can do about a Great Lightbulb.
 
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Well here it is - if we want the Great Lighthouse we will have to remove it from Asoka's hands, and I think we want it. I checked the city screens and his towns contribute zero to our trade route income, he has a resource we could use, he is a very small nation (exceeded in his smallness only by Mansa) and I think we could capture his two towns on our side of the peninsula, then send a couple-six boatloads of 'zerks, cats and axes at Delhi, capture that town, also the Holy City of Buddhism IIRC, then sign both him and Mansa into peonage and take whatever resources they have we might need. We would get a nice boost to the economy and a big run up on score and be sitting pretty to take the Japanese out of the game. And Delhi would make a nice spot for the Forbidden Palace, or even Versailles if we can do all this before Huyana builds it.

There is only one problem with that plan - actually two, no three, we have no, or not enough, boats to even consider it, we have no catapults, and we really don't have enough axes to capture one city defended by longbows, did I mention Asoka learned Feudalism? So here it is in a nutshell: One frustrated old warhorse.

So, finished Sistine Chapel in the capitol, markets in a lot of places, a harbor and a library in a couple of others. Pushed the research towards Liberalism with Paper, sold the map around to bulk up the treasury for the run through the Machinery/Optics/Philosophy line so we woould be ready to burn to Education, then Liberalism, then Astronomy, we do need to find that mythical third landmass and if it means obsoleting the Colussus, so be it. By that time we sshould have most of the infrastucture in place to deal with it. And finally trained a zerk and a catapult, still need a boat though.

Oh, and a scientist built an Academy in the capitol, if we are going for space we better bulk up. Note I did not train any Muslim missionaries, as I had better, commercial uses for the hammers at that town. Besides, Delhi has the Buddhist shrine, I can almost swear, and that religion has the widest spread of any, so why not just capture it and the Lighthouse all at once :hmm: :groucho:

Here is what the world looks like after I whored the maps around

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Did a couple of deals with my Inca buddy, mainly to bulk up the happiness factor before we start whipping military.
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and to secure the tech needed for a strong defense at home and vassalage abroad
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WE are doing great in all the categories that matter except one:

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And I get nervous when that happens, especially when Huyana, Toku and Shaka are on the other side of the strait.

We are the effective leaders in technology

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Huyana holds a couple over our heads, but not by much

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So let's train some troops and build some boats and show the world who is really the boss!
 
Nice turns, Bede. But now I'm going to discuss your discussion :hammer::

This is absolutely why I at first wanted Strauss to exclude the Space Race. Aren't you bored of yet another overwhelming-power-victory?
Just cripple our "enemies" (Asoka, Toku afterwards) so much that they can't do anything and then, because we may not conquer the world, build the Space Ship thing. No need for negotiations. No need for decisions. Just push the military forward. This is the way most average SGs are played. The variant is just the flavour towards Domination. There are exceptions but they are through funny or extravagant story telling. Some intelligent, extravagant, even funny gameplay would be very nice. Not just the usual way. We're superior anyway. So why play like one that just can't get enough?

Well. That's the reason I'm now deciding myself against Space Race. I'm voting for a Diplomatic Victory. What do you think? What would be the best way we could play out the "traders flavour" thing? What is your opinion how to bring forward the game and not (just) our position in the game?
 
I already proposed to take Delhi, that's quite obvious if you only want to win the game. If this was a solo game i probably quit deciding the game is already won, so i agree with Pvblvis this is a variant game and we have to hold ourselves to the variant to keep it interesting. Problem is the variant isn't 100% clear. I didn't expect us to attack Mansa and once we did i don't understand why we shouldn't attack Asoka.

Before i play i want to hear from Strauss which way we gonna win this game:scan:

I vote with Pvblvis for Diplomatic cause that seems most difficult for me, i'm not good in diplomatic relations.
 
Bede said:
....then Astronomy, we do need to find that mythical third landmass and if it means obsoleting the Colussus, so be it.....

You can use a caravel for this. Also when we want to attack Engineering would be very nice for those powerfull trebs.
 
Asperger said:
If this was a solo game i probably quit deciding the game is already won,

So would I. But we haven't won. We're traders. And what great a trader can achieve did we achieve yet? :)

Asperger said:
I didn't expect us to attack Mansa

Maybe it was a failure to allow active warmongering. Because there was nothing special in this Mansa Musa conquest. Except for the opening of the war and some military moves that were required to win at all. But the conquest didn't have anything to do with our variant. It was just, that we were not powerful enough and "needed" expansion. Not to forget that the only strong city site we captured was Timbuktu. The rest is almost crap.

Well we can continue to conquest. But what would be the interesting, the new, the challenging, the exciting about it then? What would be the fun if this game would be played "the boring usual way" [tm] ;)?

Or to ask a direct question: What for are we guys playing succession games?
 
Diplomacy is always a good choice and to make it work we need to find and trade with the nations on the other continent, which means Astronomy.

Capturing the Great Lighthouse and that Buddhist shrine will help as well.

Making Toku a friend would be huge! And getting his UN vote wil require careful management.
 
The war with Mansa was necessary for two reasons: getting us out of our 5-city peninsula and preventing him from gaining too many techs and ruining our trade position.
I expected to take on Asoka eventually as well. However, he is so pathetically small that he does not pose a threat. I don't think the Great Lighthouse and the Mahabodhi are sufficient reasons to attack a trading partner.

The reason I didn't forbid offensive wars is because I expected one or maybe two to be necessary for expansion and preventing a civ running away. It was not a carte blanche to attack other civs and even trading partners for gaining a Wonder. I hoped the team signing up would stay loyal to the spirit of the game, and that is to be good traders.

We will almost certainly have more wars to fight. I don't expect Asoka and Toku living together in peace for much longer, and the same goes for Huayna and Shaka. If one of our trading partners is attacked, we must declare war on the offender. How far we want to go in that war is up for debate when the time comes.

I agree on going for the Diplomatic victory since it is in the spirit of the game.
 
Strauss said:
If one of our trading partners is attacked, we must declare war on the offender.

Yes. This is completely ok. Just want to prevent that we just take everything that is important by force in order to have an anyway easy victory. We should stick to our role a little better.

Asoka currently is "our best friend". To attack him for his Shrine and his Wonders would definitely not fit to the spirit of our game. This is not about trades but about a lot of greed that wants to be satisfied by force.

We didn't build the Lighthouse fast enough ourselves. But our friend did. Where's the problem? We actually have a holy city, but no Shrine. So we should build one and spread it, if we want the money. And not betray our friend who has already done all the work himself.
 
1190 AD Haithabu & Uppsala > caravels to meet 7th opponent and for the circumnavigationbonus. Walata > library (in stead of forge, is useless in this city). Citizens of Nidaros making money in stead of hammers.

1196 AD Whip caravel in Haithabu.

IBT Mansa demands Feudalism, offcause i give in, can't believe he's pleased with us....

1202 AD Get Music, worldmap and 150 gold for machinery from Asoka. Timbuktu > buddhist stupa for culture war. Whip caravel Uppsala.

1208 AD Philosophy comes in, research Education with purpose liberalism. Nidaros > market. Haithabu > forge.

IBT Suddenly we meet QIN. He's third in score but backwards in technology. Open our borders with him.

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1244 AD Huayna has researched guilds, not education. Probably he will get the great merchant fron economics later.

1262 AD Renew deal with Shaka to get 5 gold/turn extra from him. Gift Shaka Drama and he turns from cautious to pleased. Gift Qin Alphabet and we get +4 in fine relations allthough he stays cautious (he's hindu).

1268 AD
We get the circumnavigationbonus. Whip Buddhist stupa in Timbuktu.

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1274 AD We are first to discover Education > Liberalism (7/8 turns)

1280 AD Already set five city's on university's, we need six for Oxford, a candidate is Birka that almost finishes a market. Huayna gives us 80 gold to support our queeste to liberalism.

Further everything is nice and quiet and pleased and friendly, even Toku and Huayna and Shaka.

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save
 
Nice job to get us the circumnavigation bonus. For traders, this is a must-have :worship: Liberalism the same, next one can choose the free tech and this wilk give us a nice advance. We have to be careful thereafter that we research the right things to maintain our tech lead.

Can someone analyse what groups our opponents have formed. I think we don't wish to be forced into a war because our favorite allies (the bigger or nicer group) declared war on the less-favorite. So maybe we have to cancel some deals as well. I don't think we want the computer to throw a dice for our diplomacy future :)

What do you think?
 
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