Strange religion-civ combos.

[Lone Wolf]

Yeah, the Bannor are definitely the most morally shady Good civ (despite their in-game leaders being pretty decent).

With the merge of Wild Mana AI, the days of RoK-FoL-world would seem to be over, but that doesn't mean we can't try some justification, so let's try to justify:

Calabim - RoK
Sheaim - RoK
Balseraphs - RoK

beyond generic "blah blah blah redemption blah blah blah".

 

[Dean_the_Young]

Yeah, the Bannor are definitely the most morally shady Good civ (despite their in-game leaders being pretty decent).

With the merge of Wild Mana AI, the days of RoK-FoL-world would seem to be over, but that doesn't mean we can't try some justification, so let's try to justify:

Calabim - RoK
Sheaim - RoK
Balseraphs - RoK

beyond generic "blah blah blah redemption blah blah blah".

Feasting on fodder/destroying the world/throwing the best musical EVER simply requires a lot of hard work and dedication...

 

[Lone Wolf]

Feasting on fodder doesn't. I guess the Calabim-RoK would be more of a religion whose purpose is to make the non-vampires obedient (work hard, and your vampiric overlords will reward you, while the vampires themselves diligently working at managing the state affairs) with some liberalizations of the policy towards the human cattle.

RoK at its worst also seems to incorporate a bit of a social-darwinist attitude,
(From Cassiel's pedia entry:

a boy who had starved because his family couldn't afford food and the teachings of Kilmorph don't emphasis charity

)

that would go well with the Calabim.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I may be cynical, but I don't see any difference between Order and OO as far as their control goes. The difference between Unyielding Order and Tower of Complacency is mostly semantic, the difference being that Order demands subservience, while OO imposes it. I can imagine OO taking advantage of the Bannor's hierarchy and lack of individualism. That goes for the Bannor people at least. I can't imagine Sabathiel allowing it.

No, OO and Order are very different, and frankly more diametrically opposed than the Order and the Ashen Veil. The main Bannor crusades were directed against the worshipers of the overlords, and the chief adviser to the Bannor Emperor is the champion who killed the Burnt Priest.

The Order is pure lawful, and only incidentally good. The Overlords are pure Chaotic, and only incidentally (and very unevenly) evil. The Empyrean is pure good, with little regard for law or chaos. The Ashen Veil is pure evil, with a similar disregard for law or chaos.

Just as Cassiel argues that Good and Evil when taken to an extreme loop back around into the type of fanaticism embodied by both Basium and Hyborem, I argue that the same can be said for law and Chaos. When Chaos descends into pure anarchy, every individual becomes a tyrant and there is no protection if one such tyrant manages to dominate the others. OO and the Order may have similar effects, but they are still quite different. The Order teaches of a single, universal, unchanging, absolute morality to which all must submit. Its worshipers are to have no will of their own and not impose their personal opinions on others, but wholly submit to justice and lead others to do the same. The Overlords are many, limited to certain followers, extremely fickle, and very subjective. Each Overlord seeks to manipulate mankind for very different purposes, and their followers likewise seek to manipulate their gods. Cultists (or at least Speakers) pick and choose which Overlord's messages to follow in different instances, based on what each might give them or how each threatens their goals. OO clergy have no belief in absolute justice, so they see nothing wrong with forcing their own views on others and likewise don't have any strong arguments for protecting their own minds from the intrusions of others.


Before sleeping, Danalin would have been very passive and his worshipers would not have imposed their will on anyone or had a strict hierarchy. Mammon's influence would make then serve themselves instead. This results in something close to Camulos's sphere. Camulos always opposed Junil, even before his fall. He was always an anarchist, but used to be of a different type. He originally represented Pacifistic Anarchism, the lack of a need for any external authority in order to make individuals get along. In this no one considers himself worthy of imposing his will on anyone, and all do what is best for the community without compulsion. After his fall, this became the more familiar violent anarchism, where everyone is a petty despot who hates to be controlled by others but sees no problem forcing others to do his will.

 

[loocas]

For Calabim/ROK:

Understanding that Kilmorph granted life to Kheldon's inanimate creations, the Calabim worship her in hopes that she will create living beings (food) for them.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Sheaim - OO: Reminds me of Warhammer Forces of Chaos, even though I have very little experience of Warhammer.

Ljosalfar - OO: Worshipping the Overlords who embrace the chaotic side of nature, I guess?

Ljosalfar - Veil: Entropy is a completely natural process. The laws of Nature herself say that the world is bound to destruction, so let's have some benefits from worshipping the god of entropy and destruction among the way - it's only natural. Also can work for Sheaim - FoL.

Sidar - CoE: They're a shadowy and sneaky people, it's definitely the most "in-character" religion for them.

Sidar - RoK: The Sidar also seem quite dedicated and masterful in their field of experience (specialists), so RoK values fit them also.

Sidar - FoL: Emphasising the "unification of life and death" theme. Also, "ancient forest" may sound like something shadowy and misty.

Sidar - Order: A more active Sidar stance against undead and other dark stuff like that.

Sidar - Empyrean: See Svartalfar - Empyrean. Also, not needing the primitive pleasures of the body leads to spiritual enlightenment quite well.

Sidar - Veil: Again, For Science!

Any ideas on Sidar - OO? I can't think of an elegant justification right now.

 

[apenpaap]

Sidar - Veil: Again, For Science!

Maybe this sounds really weird, but are you by any chance a Monkey Island fan?

 

[Lone Wolf]

Maybe this sounds really weird, but are you by any chance a Monkey Island fan?

No. Never even played any of the games.

On-topic, how about unthematic use of religion in-game? I justify militaristic use of the Empyrean (gameplay-wise, Empyrean is very militaristic) as a more militant interpretation of the enlightenment concept, a la Japanese Buddhism versus the original one. But they still would focus more on the enlightenment then on obedience.

I guess Sidar - OO would be a sort of "Waters of Eternal Life" type of thing.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

So, looking back, it looks like you DON'T need to adopt a religion to get a Religious Victory: you just need to control the shrine. Which leads to some interesting questions for the agnostic leaders, who can win via religious influence despite not following the religion.

For shits and giggles...

Auric Ascended winning via Order.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Auric Ascended winning via Order.

Eternal winter and stasis is the best way to preserve the unchanging Law.

 

[fractalfeline]

I rather enjoyed this combination. It offset the barbarian trait nicely. I'm looking forward to getting some druids

I randomly rolled Sheelba, and decided I really hate the barb trait, so I decided I'd try Empyrean rather than Ashen Veil.

And then what happens? I found Varn Gosam south of me, trapped on a peninsula. And the Ring of Carcer. And Letum Frigus. And later Decius (Bannor, Neutral) and Auric Ulvin. And I decided... that makes a really fun story.

So sometime after the whole Decius storyline, Sheelba is making anew her Clan of Embers. But she's becoming more disenchanted with Bhall as a god as she goes along. First she encounters Letum Frigus, and is reminded of how Bhall did essentially nothing to thwart the God of Winter, while the orcs struggled in the cold of Everlasting Winter. Meanwhile, with Frostlings returning during Samhain, Sheelba starts realizing that the God of Winter is coming back via Auric Ulvin, and that she must protect her clan from another Age of Ice. Meanwhile, she finds Brigit trapped in a prison of ice, and at first accuses her of treachery to Bhall. But after talking to her for a little while, and realizing that with Mulcarn on the rise, she might find herself trapped in a prison of ice, forsaken by her god.

Sheelba encounters Varn Gosam, who is an elf, and a Goody-Two shoes to boot. So naturally, Varn despises her from the get-go (-4 to relations? Ouch), saying that she's a filthy, evil orc, uneducated, barbaric, and orcs never change. Meanwhile, Varn is taking all of her land! Of course, Sheelba resents this, and resolves to squash the daylights out of Varn.

Decius protests. Decius still considers Varn a friend, even after the whole Talia Gosam debaucle. After all, Varn took him in when his own kingdom would not! But Decius is still rather disenchanted with religion and has finally settled on Neutral. However, Decius and Sheelba become friends too, as Sheelba feels a sort-of kinship to the Bannor, and has finally decided that the past is past. Decius has that sort of philosophy too... especially since they have a common enemy now: Auric.

Finally, as Sheelba's armies are at the gates of Golden Leane, Varn and Sheelba get to talking from over the walls. He accuses her of having no Honor, of being nothing but a savage and dishonest orc. "You may believe you are brave, and that your men die with Honor. But what honor is there in warring with me? Ransacking my libraries, taking all my technologies, and then using them against me? I had no quarrel with you, and you declared war on me! Repeatedly! I only want peace!" Sheelba captured the city, but Varn escaped. But his words got her to thinking... She was going through his former palace in Golden Leane, and stumbled upon his notes about Lugus and Honor. The more she read, the more she felt inclined to agree. Maybe... she ought to embrace the warm and loving light of Lugus, rather than the destructive and harsh light of Bhall? Perhaps the Sun was a better route to counter Auric than Fire? So she founded the Deis Dei and built Temples of the Empyrean throughout the land. She founded the Overcouncil, with the intent of uniting Varn, Decius, and herself to counter the common threat: Mulcarn.

So that's the story so far. The latest development in the drama was that I found Alexis on another continent. She is, of course, not pleased with me. But she's FoL, of all things. Why is the AI for Calabim always FoL? (Seems that way in my experience.)

 

[Lone Wolf]

But she's FoL, of all things. Why is the AI for Calabim always FoL? (Seems that way in my experience.)

FoL is one of earliest founded religions. I've seen them having other religions, however.

Calabim-FoL is an okay fit, actually. The vampire hunter and the human prey. The survival of the fittest. And the vampires are the fittest of all.

 

[avalonnn]

Not just Bals -- but PERPENTECH Order -- was odd. My crusaders and paladins were supported by courtesans and taskmasters ... then the Khazad built the Mercurian Gate and I had to take them and Basium down.

 

[Diamondeye]

Nothing is "odd" for Perpy in the sense that everything is usually odd already.

I have played an MP game with Perpy where I founded Order and then switched to Empyrean after that, because the Malakim player who had founded Empy ended up vassalizing me.

 

[A_Hamster]

Just got Order Svartalfar in my current game. The rigid discipline of the Order mated to the anarchist leanings of the Svartalfar ... Yeah, this will work real well.

(Actually, Faeryl founded Ashen Veil, whereupon as Order Sidar I stomped her. She adopted Order to curry favor, as the AI usually does when it is losing. Meanwhile the Bannor went FoL.)

 

[Lone Wolf]

the anarchist leanings of the Svartalfar ...

Never viewed the Svartalfar as being that anarchist, more like masters at using "well organized chaos" against their enemies.

 

[A_Hamster]

Never viewed the Svartalfar as being that anarchist, more like masters at using "well organized chaos" against their enemies.

You're right, I've put that badly. At least how I see the Svartalfar, they have a traditional aristocratic caste system whose legal code and social mores they follow in public. However, only the foolish and the inept actually follow the system mindlessly: the truly effective Svartalfar citizen is constantly "gaming the system", using the laws and traditions when they give advantage, and then flouting them when they hinder your interests. But they do not break any law or tradition unless they can ignore or control the consequences. Besides, it's part of the game to get what you want without breaking the letter of the law while warping the intent.

As for warfare, I agree. Both the Summer and Winter Courts practice guerrilla warfare, but the inherent maliciousness of the Svartalfar lends itself better to conflict.

 

[Great Overlord]

Ashen Veil Bannor

"The Bannor had to fight the demons in Hell. Now they want to show them how it is to be token to another and hostile world!"

Yes, I know the thread has been abandoned for more then a year...

 

[avalonnn]

Yes, I know the thread has been abandoned for more then a year...

I've said this elsewhere, but there's a strange logic to an AV/Luichirp. First of all, they're scientists, and are unlikely to see any knowledge as forbidden. Secondly, when they meet people, they might see them as poorly formed or mistakes. Finally, they might want to remake creation. "The lady was made too big and not broad enough. Problem solved."

 

[tribble]

I may be cynical, but I don't see any difference between Order and OO as far as their control goes. The difference between Unyielding Order and Tower of Complacency is mostly semantic, the difference being that Order demands subservience, while OO imposes it. I can imagine OO taking advantage of the Bannor's hierarchy and lack of individualism. That goes for the Bannor people at least. I can't imagine Sabathiel allowing it.

He thinks sabathiel exists:laughingsheaim: