Study The Past - a series retrospective

[AriochIV]

Did the Civ2 High Council really "revolutionize diplomacy", since all they did was give advice, and the feature was never used again?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Did the Civ2 High Council really "revolutionize diplomacy", since all they did was give advice, and the feature was never used again?

I'm of two minds on this. Either Firaxis is about to make a massive change to the way Diplomacy works and are looking for a way to highlight the legacy of their diplomatic system.

Or they're about to bring back the High Council (presumably in some way more meaningful than a glorified tutorial).

Or maybe both?

 

[AriochIV]

Perhaps there really wasn't much in terms of gameplay that was new about Civ2. I think most of the changes were graphical. Unit hitpoints and the council are kind of the only things they can point to.

I was thinking about this earlier in terms of "what do you think the major new feature of Civ7 is", thinking of the singular major feature of each of the previous versions... and for Civ2 there was really only graphics and unit hit points.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Perhaps there really wasn't much in terms of gameplay that was new about Civ2. I think most of the changes were graphical. Unit hitpoints and the council are kind of the only things they can point to.

I was thinking about this earlier in terms of "what do you think the major new feature of Civ7 is", thinking of the singular major feature of each of the previous versions... and for Civ2 there was really only graphics and unit hit points.

The Throne Room was new in Civ 2 and is a popular discontinued feature that players frequently request. They could have mentioned that, but didn't.

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

The Throne Room was new in Civ 2 and is a popular discontinued feature that players frequently request. They could have mentioned that, but didn't.

I really do think that the features they don't mention are more significant than the features they do.

 

[user343744]

Having advisors react dynamically to what you're doing and the geopolitical state of the world would add so much to immersion. Hope this is what they're alluding too, would be pretty neat.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Having advisors react dynamically to what you're doing and the geopolitical state of the world would add so much to immersion. Hope this is what they're alluding too, would be pretty neat.

If we get these guys back, I'd like to see them as diplomacy helpers, as well as enactors of government policies. Like, a little bit like the governors, going out to spread good will and loyalty in cities domestic and foreign, but they also act as the face of your government when you pick your social policies. And I'd assume they'd also read the tech and civic quotes.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

The Throne Room was new in Civ 2 and is a popular discontinued feature that players frequently request. They could have mentioned that, but didn't.

Yup. No Throne Room, no Palace, no assigning population to cosplay Elvis, but they highlight as a significant development the High Council, quite possibly the cheesiest mechanic in the Civ series. That's not random.

 

[_hero_]

If the High Council is coming in Civ VII, I could see it implementing the conversational AI technology that's so prevalent these days. Back in Civ 2 days, they had to have prerecorded, canned responses. With the current state of AI tech it's possible that the advisors could be more conversational and make comments that are very specific to what has actually been going on in the game.

 

[Plotinus]

Hi Plotinus. I have played civ I, civ II, and civ III and also never played any of the later versions. I still play civ III, and it's available via GoG and Steam these days. I would recommend the GoG version.

As it happens, just the other day I re-bought CivIII on Steam (it was about 80p!) and have been playing it again for the first time in about a decade. I’m not very good at it now, but it runs very nicely on my high-powered rig!

 

[Blake00]

If I put my conspiracy cap on too I hope all this love to the first 2 games is a sign they are are going to finally release Civ1, Civ2 & Civ2ToT on GoG and Steam! Be good marketing for Civ7 if they finally solved this strange issue. But of course I'm just dreaming and they'll probably just do these videos and forget about those games again lol.

Vote for Sid Meier's Civilization I and II (MGE & Test of Time) to be added to GoG

2025 ATTENTION: GOG has set up a new official Dreamlist voting program in 2025, where you can give your voice for which games they should try to preserve, and, if necessary, acquire beforehand. Vote here for Civilization 1, and here for Civilization 2! We're trying to get Test of Time added too...

forums.civfanatics.com

 

[GIO888]

Great nostalgia, and Proud to say I've played them all,

that's 33 years of all-day Sundays - and longer than Alexander the Great was alive!!

 

[DST1348]

I found the "cartoony 90ies jump-and-run" music in the video very out of character. Civ II had some brilliant music pieces, some of which got reused in later games of the series. Why they didn't choose one of those iconic pieces is beyond me. I hope the music in the video is not an indicator for the Civ 7 music.

 

[Krajzen]

I'm of two minds on this. Either Firaxis is about to make a massive change to the way Diplomacy works and are looking for a way to highlight the legacy of their diplomatic system.

I am almost certain about this, because there was that one notable interview from the late civ6 era where devs talked about diplomacy and how much cooler and different could it be (I don't know how to find it)...

I think high council is quite likely - diplomacy is very likely to be changed, espionage too, a lot of people demand some sort of internal politics, they may want to do something with civ6 governors etc.

 

[bene_legionary]

I am almost certain about this, because there was that one notable interview from the late civ6 era where devs talked about diplomacy and how much cooler and different could it be (I don't know how to find it)...

Maybe you're thinking of the Soren Johnson article on how civ-to-civ diplomatic trading was such a mistake on his part in Civ IV? But I also feel like someone like Ed Beach talked about how there was more room for better diplomacy at some point...

 

[Krajzen]

I found it

https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-future-as-told-by-its-lead-designers.675118/

Strenger: "I think diplomacy and the other leaders are, to me, it's my white whale for design. I'm like, there has to be a better way to do this. Because I kind of get frustrated when I'm playing single player. I feel like we've added rich personalities and abilities to counter against, but the other leaders still always feel like obstacles. I'm going to have to conquer you. So I feel like there's a richness to player-leader dynamics [playing against the AI] that could be explored."

 

[Josephias]

The Throne Room was new in Civ 2 and is a popular discontinued feature that players frequently request. They could have mentioned that, but didn't.

Not so new really, and not so discontinued, as it was a variant of the palace that Civ 1 and Civ 3 had. Indeed, I myself prefer the palace building, where you could chose the different architectural styles, than the throne room, that was just adding more decoratins (as far as I remember). I won't mind this feature coming back, but I miss more full-screen city views.

If we get these guys back, I'd like to see them as diplomacy helpers, as well as enactors of government policies. Like, a little bit like the governors, going out to spread good will and loyalty in cities domestic and foreign, but they also act as the face of your government when you pick your social policies. And I'd assume they'd also read the tech and civic quotes.

When governors were introduced in Civ6, I had some hope they had them also used as advisors, giving some tips or some small helps in screen, not fully relevant but useful (i.e showing in-screen calculations about how to optimise they related resources). I think this would have make them feel more a part of your entourage as you would be continously making small interactions with them.

On the other hand... maybe a use a Generative AI rather than pre-determined texts would be having all leaders actually discussing in the world congress? (that being the the reason advisor council is shown in anarchy )

 

[Krajzen]

On the other hand... maybe a use a Generative AI rather than pre-determined texts would be having all leaders actually discussing in the world congress? (that being the the reason advisor council is shown in anarchy )

Generative AI is the fastest way for me to lose immersion and suspension disbelief, by its very nature it is capable of only generic text

"Dear leaders of the world. The problem of city state dispute we are discussing right now is very complex and demands careful consideration, as there are multiple factors involved. The solutions which I wanted to propose are
1) Engage in a constructive dialogue respecting both participants and their unique perspectives on the problem.
2) Find authorities willing to mediate in the problem in order to decrease political tensions
3) Ask experts regarding empirically sound solutions to the problem

I believe we can all achieve common understanding and mutual benefits facing this challenge to our global community"

 

[Josephias]

Generative AI is the fastest way for me to lose immersion and suspension disbelief, by its very nature it is capable of only generic text

As an unfortunate reader of many ChatGPT texts generated by work colleages I cannot deny that... It would take very biased generators to create texts that match each leader style (but somewhat like that may be still possible, and as we are confronting with reading the same sentence again and again... there might be a small possibility it works).

 

[shaglio]

The generic repetitiveness of AI generated responses is the exact reason why I'm surprised so many people have such fondness for the Palace/Throne Room mechanics. I found them entertaining for, at most, the first handful of games played. After that, they were just an annoyance and I would click on any random option just to get back to playing the game sooner.