[BTS] Stumbling back at Deity

[Qactus]

IMO anything achieved by reloading combat results should be clearly marked as such (if posted at all). Otherwise it really distorts the view on what is possible through good play. And ultimately that's the main benefit I draw from Strategy&Tips forum these days looking at deity games being played. It'd be really cool if we could rely on game rules being followed unless stated otherwise. In this case I fell for it again (although it was the same poster as last time)

 

[Fish Man]

IMO anything achieved by reloading combat results should be clearly marked as such (if posted at all). Otherwise it really distorts the view on what is possible through good play. And ultimately that's the main benefit I draw from Strategy&Tips forum these days looking at deity games being played. It'd be really cool if we could rely on game rules being followed unless stated otherwise. In this case I fell for it again (although it was the same poster as last time)

@Pangaea @BornInCantaloup I thought I stated it here explicitly too, but I reload frequently in my space games. It’s not meant to be applicable 1:1 to a true “shadow”, so yeah, this probably is less relevant to your game directly than a standard blind playthrough. Again, apologies if I implied otherwise, even if on accident. I think moving forward, the best way to view my games is less "100% directly translatable advice" but "what sort of things are possible if you optimize things to the max", though certain elements still carry through (etc. extorting techs thru peace). If you want, I guess I could try to play from your save after you finish the rush to see how I'd recover; maybe that would be more helpful.

The other thing is that “new random seed” is OFF, so I can’t actually change combat results by reloading, only test if an attack is favorable. If I lose at 99% and reload, I will still lose at 99%. Again, the biggest reason why I only lost 3 units here is because the AI spammed flanking I chariots as city defenders, because they had horses but no metal. Eventually I get over 95% odds with those, as shown by the screenshot. There ARE things I can do to change combat results, like “waste” a bad roll on an earlier attack or do something different the turn before, but in the early game those options are limited. And as seen by the later save provided below, I lost about 40% of my cuir army in 2 wars by the midgame, which shows that without “new random seed”, you can only influence the RNG so much, and the law of averages wins out over a long period of time.

I spoiled myself the location of horses already before I started my own game, hence settling the second city before AH. I tried not to let it influence what I did too much (otherwise, would’ve moved capital to the left).

I didn’t mean to mislead anyone, by the way - otherwise, I wouldn’t attach my saves for people to fully examine and pick apart. I suppose I just get something different out of this game (there are too many circumstances in my life already frustratingly out of my control…). The reason I play reload-heavy space wins the vast majority of the time is because, otherwise, deity just feels like a grind. On a decent/good map like this, a win seems like a foregone conclusion if you rush even 2-3 people down (we've already establish Stalin is easy toast), at which point the endgame is just shuffling 100 cavs or cannons across the map. Space and smart endgame teching feels like more finesse.

 

[Fippy]

I find your knowledge to be impressive @Fish Man , by now you are a well of good info on how things work with AIs etc.
And if you play deity with strong starts you wouldn't feel like grinding imo
Rusten once said "once you start reloading you cannot stop", which explains this addiction but trust me it can be stopped. You need just one succesful game without.

 

[Pangaea]

Picking up this again after playing a BOTM game. Brief overview of 50BC, before continuing.

Spoiler :

The main land looks okay. I'm running 5 scientists in St. Petersburg, and the 7 scientists in Heliopolis, highlighted below.

Techs is kinda annoying. Mansa got Paper, which I probably traded with him last session. So most likely I'd have to race with him to Lib. Uncertain if I can win that, but perhaps.

To boost GPP further, and from what I recall this was your advice as well, the plan probably ought to be to launch a golden age now, and part-bulb edu with the first GS. For now I don't have Machinery which should allow a bulb into Lib too. If Mansa shows up with Edu soon, and perhaps no matter what, I'll have little other option than to quickly Lib Nationalism. Then go the rest of the way myself. This seems like a very early Lib date if Mansa goes straight for it now, but what can you do, eh?

Not looked over the cities properly yet, so maybe the economy is in dire straits here, but normally I'd like to get out forges before a cuir attack. Ideally stables too, but that matters less if one can run theo or vassalage. Naturally I have some war chariots that can be upgraded too, but that isn't cheap. There is also the GM that is on the way towards the Artemis city. I was thinking of getting him all the way over there, as it will hopefully (!!) net a tidy sum. That will be needed for WC upgrades later, and to get the remaining techs.

Currently there is a war between Mansa and Gilgamesh. Maybe it will slow down Mansa a little, but you never know with these superboosted Deity AIs. Mansa lost a city, though, so perhaps he will be on the back foot. Gilgamesh can be a tough nut.

 

[Fish Man]

Picking up this again after playing a BOTM game. Brief overview of 50BC, before continuing.

Spoiler :

The main land looks okay. I'm running 5 scientists in St. Petersburg, and the 7 scientists in Heliopolis, highlighted below.

View attachment 614356

Techs is kinda annoying. Mansa got Paper, which I probably traded with him last session. So most likely I'd have to race with him to Lib. Uncertain if I can win that, but perhaps.

View attachment 614357

To boost GPP further, and from what I recall this was your advice as well, the plan probably ought to be to launch a golden age now, and part-bulb edu with the first GS. For now I don't have Machinery which should allow a bulb into Lib too. If Mansa shows up with Edu soon, and perhaps no matter what, I'll have little other option than to quickly Lib Nationalism. Then go the rest of the way myself. This seems like a very early Lib date if Mansa goes straight for it now, but what can you do, eh?

Not looked over the cities properly yet, so maybe the economy is in dire straits here, but normally I'd like to get out forges before a cuir attack. Ideally stables too, but that matters less if one can run theo or vassalage. Naturally I have some war chariots that can be upgraded too, but that isn't cheap. There is also the GM that is on the way towards the Artemis city. I was thinking of getting him all the way over there, as it will hopefully (!!) net a tidy sum. That will be needed for WC upgrades later, and to get the remaining techs.

Currently there is a war between Mansa and Gilgamesh. Maybe it will slow down Mansa a little, but you never know with these superboosted Deity AIs. Mansa lost a city, though, so perhaps he will be on the back foot. Gilgamesh can be a tough nut.

Libbing nationalism doesn't seem too bad. Is there a way to trade for marble? If so, the Taj could be a sweet prize (organized religion applies to wonders too).

There's actually a hidden upside to Mansa getting lib here. If he libs something, he'll 99% get nationalism. At that point, all you have to do is find something to trade that from him (Maybe gunpowder for half of it? Gunpowder + guilds?), since he's the only one who trades away monopoly techs. So Mansa winning lib may almost be as good as you getting lib yourself. I think I'll try for lib, as worst-case scenario, you have education and he gets lib, but education still opens to path for gunpowder that, again, you can eventually trade nationalism for. He has a medium gold flavor and mild religion flavor, so it's very likely he'll just go for divine right or guilds (and then economics afterwards; he loves that tech and free market). Regardless, no need to worry; 50BC is a very good date to be on edu already.

Why are your spy points on Izzy? She's super stingy and clearly not the best techer of the bunch (I think her WFYABTA limit is just 8? 10?). Also I think she's probably the one you should target first. Her land is good but she's relatively squishy (i.e. no pro, no agg, not really a unitspammer). After you sweep Izzy + Gilgamesh, you would be unstoppable. If Mansa doesn't go rifling, he can be easily capped too, at which point it's gg. He'll probably just beeling physics or something - him getting lib also sets him up for trying to get communism, which further wastes his time. The Mansa + Giggles war here is extremely good; Gilgamesh doesn't have the best start and it's a long way from his capital to Mansa's, so they should be occupied for quite a while.

 

[Fish Man]

Picking up this again after playing a BOTM game. Brief overview of 50BC, before continuing.

Spoiler :

The main land looks okay. I'm running 5 scientists in St. Petersburg, and the 7 scientists in Heliopolis, highlighted below.

View attachment 614356

Techs is kinda annoying. Mansa got Paper, which I probably traded with him last session. So most likely I'd have to race with him to Lib. Uncertain if I can win that, but perhaps.

View attachment 614357

To boost GPP further, and from what I recall this was your advice as well, the plan probably ought to be to launch a golden age now, and part-bulb edu with the first GS. For now I don't have Machinery which should allow a bulb into Lib too. If Mansa shows up with Edu soon, and perhaps no matter what, I'll have little other option than to quickly Lib Nationalism. Then go the rest of the way myself. This seems like a very early Lib date if Mansa goes straight for it now, but what can you do, eh?

Not looked over the cities properly yet, so maybe the economy is in dire straits here, but normally I'd like to get out forges before a cuir attack. Ideally stables too, but that matters less if one can run theo or vassalage. Naturally I have some war chariots that can be upgraded too, but that isn't cheap. There is also the GM that is on the way towards the Artemis city. I was thinking of getting him all the way over there, as it will hopefully (!!) net a tidy sum. That will be needed for WC upgrades later, and to get the remaining techs.

Currently there is a war between Mansa and Gilgamesh. Maybe it will slow down Mansa a little, but you never know with these superboosted Deity AIs. Mansa lost a city, though, so perhaps he will be on the back foot. Gilgamesh can be a tough nut.

By the way, do you have a save? I could try to play a bit from this point (no reloads or cheesing 100%espionage for 1 turn to see what people are teching this time!).

 

[Fish Man]

Agreed. Libbing Military Tradition is only marginally better. Strictly worse with marble (which Pangaea doesn't have).
There is a way to snag marble but no trading option. Might be too late for that. I didn't re-check the thread. Speaking from memory, here.

Agreed regarding Isabella.

No strong thoughts @ Mansa winning the race. I feel it's pretty secure with 2x bulbs.

I actually think there’s a surefire way to make know whether you can win…keep slider at 0, and every turn, check the available trades. If you see Mansa get education, he’s going for it; adjust your plans accordingly. However, if you see him get machinery, it’s all clear, and he’s going for engineering or guilds. After you get your second GS, if he doesn’t already have education, doublebulb to get it, and you should have lib secured.

 

[Pangaea]

I was playing so didn't read these posts until now, but good stuff. Here is an update after an almost 20-turns session, in 375AD.

Spoiler :

First off, I launched the GAge as advertised with the GA from winning the Music race (that I thought was lost, so thanks for putting me straight so I tried!). Changed things slightly in St. Petersburg. Ran 7 scientists there too, at -6 per turn. With that for two turns, and 6 for 1 turns, we got him in 3 turns instead of 4, with 2 to spare The city lost a fair whack of the foodbin ofc, but I wanted the GS a bit sooner for the Edu bulb, and the city has food to burn in oodles anyway.

Like Fish Man said above, I too like to check the trade screen to try to figure out what the AIs are teching, especially at crucial moments like this. One turn in, and it becomes clear he is teching Civil Service. Good!

Wang's doing a lousy job roading the path for my GM, but he brings a settler party. Saladin beats him to everything though. Not sure where that group went eventually, but he really should have settled the jungled rice and ivory. Maybe he wanted to get up to my horse or something.

Only two turns in, but here is an overview shot from 1AD. In a golden age so the numbers are boosted of course, but 356 is quite nice, without an academy. I forgot to check, but if BiC's numbers from before were correct, we had maybe 280 without the GAge.

Next turn I bulb Education for slightly over 1700, then one-turn the rest of it.

Meanwhile, Mansa's capital Timbuktu is under siege by Gilgamesh, but he's not going to get through that I don't think. Even with a bunch of catas, 4-5 longbows is rough for 6-strength units.

Not long after they peace out. I think Gilgamesh attacked first, but many of his units survived. Not entirely sure what occurred, but at least the war ended.

Not very interesting, but Wang cancelled a deal. Fish for Dye or something like that. So I cancelled the Horses deal and re-negotiated. Not bad

T120 and the next GS is out from Heliopolis, again with 2 spare . I wait one turn to pop him due to 3-4 cities growing (also needed Compass). Then check what Mansa may be up to.

Yeah, he ain't teching Education yet. I'm going for it. Teching through Nationalism is 8-9 turns (without GAge boost), but I feel it's doable. There is still the GM that will soon arrive at the Artemis city. What will he fetch?

Very nice! That will last a while

Also trade Machinery+100g from Wang in exchange for CS+Compass. Once Mansa gets Engineering, there was a one-turn window of getting it. I didn't, but probably should have. He then started on Notre Dame and locked me out, but giving him Education at that point would have been safe.

Mansa winds up building the AP btw, which then becomes Jewish. Darn shame. I have zero cities infected with it, so no free hammers from our cheap temples. Would have been nice. Isabella really ought to have secured that, but started it too slow. She ended up with a lump of 340g (it may have been a different wonder, I don't recall), and we got 310g of it for a tech she was reseraching (Music I think). Everybody had Philo at this point, except Saladin. He's likely to be my first target, but I trade him Philo for Theo+150g. More gold is always nice.

With that, we're at 375AD and we win the probably 1-man race to Liberalism:

Same turn Engineering becomes available again, this time from Gilgamesh. Diplo is a bit yucky here, but I'll just have to take the hits from worst enemies. I'm feeling pretty safe anyway, probably as the tech leader. Gilga lacked a few things most others had, so I have no qualms giving him Paper+Music+Compass for Engineering+70g. As an aside, Isabella was the first to Optics. If she is sensible she sends out several caravels to explore the oceans, because given the vast, vast amount of 'blackness' on the minimap, I have to assume there are islands or continents to settle.

Thebes isn't as big as in BiC's game, and I essentially halted growth here at 16, in favour of working more mines. It has also lost out on the wet corn for almost the entire game, which naturally prevents some growth potential. 16 is still a nice size, though, and it can now work all the cottages plus two mines. I'm short on health anyway, so growing more isn't that lucrative.

I took some overview shots too, but to fit in the save I can't include them here due to the 10-attachment limit. I've settled the island to the far east, which turned out the be rather good with fish+clams. Both were in the outer ring, so I don't have access to them for a couple more turns. A workboat is waiting, and another is being produced. Also settled near the iron where I razed a Russian city ages ago. Oddly enough the crab near our capital hasn't been settled yet, and it feels kinda pointless now when it can't work any tiles anyway. Admittedly another crab would be nice, but that's about it.

I have also built some missionaries because Isabella got a bad habit of sending them to Arabia. Looks like her two in our land now may be going for my own cities, but they may also just be going through to some new city here or there in Arabia or Korea or something. I've got a couple guys myself, so will see what happens.

So what do you suggest I do?

Spoiler :

Gunpowder and whip stuff into the ground?

 

[Fish Man]

I was playing so didn't read these posts until now, but good stuff. Here is an update after an almost 20-turns session, in 375AD.

Spoiler :

First off, I launched the GAge as advertised with the GA from winning the Music race (that I thought was lost, so thanks for putting me straight so I tried!). Changed things slightly in St. Petersburg. Ran 7 scientists there too, at -6 per turn. With that for two turns, and 6 for 1 turns, we got him in 3 turns instead of 4, with 2 to spare The city lost a fair whack of the foodbin ofc, but I wanted the GS a bit sooner for the Edu bulb, and the city has food to burn in oodles anyway.

Like Fish Man said above, I too like to check the trade screen to try to figure out what the AIs are teching, especially at crucial moments like this. One turn in, and it becomes clear he is teching Civil Service. Good!
View attachment 614385

Wang's doing a lousy job roading the path for my GM, but he brings a settler party. Saladin beats him to everything though. Not sure where that group went eventually, but he really should have settled the jungled rice and ivory. Maybe he wanted to get up to my horse or something.
View attachment 614386

Only two turns in, but here is an overview shot from 1AD. In a golden age so the numbers are boosted of course, but 356 is quite nice, without an academy. I forgot to check, but if BiC's numbers from before were correct, we had maybe 280 without the GAge.
View attachment 614387

Next turn I bulb Education for slightly over 1700, then one-turn the rest of it.

Meanwhile, Mansa's capital Timbuktu is under siege by Gilgamesh, but he's not going to get through that I don't think. Even with a bunch of catas, 4-5 longbows is rough for 6-strength units.
View attachment 614388

Not long after they peace out. I think Gilgamesh attacked first, but many of his units survived. Not entirely sure what occurred, but at least the war ended.

Not very interesting, but Wang cancelled a deal. Fish for Dye or something like that. So I cancelled the Horses deal and re-negotiated. Not bad
View attachment 614389

T120 and the next GS is out from Heliopolis, again with 2 spare . I wait one turn to pop him due to 3-4 cities growing (also needed Compass). Then check what Mansa may be up to.
View attachment 614391

Yeah, he ain't teching Education yet. I'm going for it. Teching through Nationalism is 8-9 turns (without GAge boost), but I feel it's doable. There is still the GM that will soon arrive at the Artemis city. What will he fetch?
View attachment 614392

Very nice! That will last a while

Also trade Machinery+100g from Wang in exchange for CS+Compass. Once Mansa gets Engineering, there was a one-turn window of getting it. I didn't, but probably should have. He then started on Notre Dame and locked me out, but giving him Education at that point would have been safe.

Mansa winds up building the AP btw, which then becomes Jewish. Darn shame. I have zero cities infected with it, so no free hammers from our cheap temples. Would have been nice. Isabella really ought to have secured that, but started it too slow. She ended up with a lump of 340g (it may have been a different wonder, I don't recall), and we got 310g of it for a tech she was reseraching (Music I think). Everybody had Philo at this point, except Saladin. He's likely to be my first target, but I trade him Philo for Theo+150g. More gold is always nice.

With that, we're at 375AD and we win the probably 1-man race to Liberalism:
View attachment 614393

Same turn Engineering becomes available again, this time from Gilgamesh. Diplo is a bit yucky here, but I'll just have to take the hits from worst enemies. I'm feeling pretty safe anyway, probably as the tech leader. Gilga lacked a few things most others had, so I have no qualms giving him Paper+Music+Compass for Engineering+70g. As an aside, Isabella was the first to Optics. If she is sensible she sends out several caravels to explore the oceans, because given the vast, vast amount of 'blackness' on the minimap, I have to assume there are islands or continents to settle.

Thebes isn't as big as in BiC's game, and I essentially halted growth here at 16, in favour of working more mines. It has also lost out on the wet corn for almost the entire game, which naturally prevents some growth potential. 16 is still a nice size, though, and it can now work all the cottages plus two mines. I'm short on health anyway, so growing more isn't that lucrative.
View attachment 614395

I took some overview shots too, but to fit in the save I can't include them here due to the 10-attachment limit. I've settled the island to the far east, which turned out the be rather good with fish+clams. Both were in the outer ring, so I don't have access to them for a couple more turns. A workboat is waiting, and another is being produced. Also settled near the iron where I razed a Russian city ages ago. Oddly enough the crab near our capital hasn't been settled yet, and it feels kinda pointless now when it can't work any tiles anyway. Admittedly another crab would be nice, but that's about it.

I have also built some missionaries because Isabella got a bad habit of sending them to Arabia. Looks like her two in our land now may be going for my own cities, but they may also just be going through to some new city here or there in Arabia or Korea or something. I've got a couple guys myself, so will see what happens.

So what do you suggest I do?

Spoiler :

Gunpowder and whip stuff into the ground?

Very nice work!

Spoiler :

Yeah, basically just run people over with cuirs. Should be straightforward enough.

I recommend finding some way to get your cuirs 2 promos out of the gate. 5 XP is the crucial benchmark, since combat 2 promotions give your cuirs winning instead of losing odds against most longbows in cities, elephants, and pikes in the field (as well as much better odds overall). This can be barracks + stables or vassalage or theocracy (only one of those is necessary, though stacking stables + theo is nice sometimes because you keep the benefits of buro and are one 60-80% odds battle away from combat 3, that threshold being the range of fights which winning will give you 3XP).

Also, stop building the market in your capital...the game won't last long enough for it to pay off, and it seems like you need health much more than happy at this point. Don't whip your cap though, those cottages are nice and serve as a good backup plan for economic recovery should the last few people get rifles before you can finish them off.

Finally, get forges everywhere. They shouldn't be too hard to whip with either organized religion (3 pop) or straight up 4-pop whipping. As well as the happy boost, they'll lower the threshold of 2-pop whipping cuirs from 40 hammers to just 26, which means you can 2-pop whip much more frequently without waiting for stuff to regrow. The difference in efficiency is night-and-day just with that 25% modifier.

Good luck on your attack!

 

[Fippy]

Cap i would keep at 1-2 whip anger, on deity fully commit to what you are doing
So Thebes can contribute some Cuirs as well while your army still needs them.

Otherwise as many as possible early, more cities captured fast means more cities to whip new units from later.
Oh and ofc less chance to run into some trouble with a bigger army.

Teching i would look at Rifling first, Cavs can fight Grens if an AI gets them. Rifles with plenty losses but still doable if they aren't too big.
Steel (cannons) usually seals the game if an AI can resist Cavs.

Some old WCs can work as cleanup units (plundering)

 

[Fish Man]

Cap i would keep at 1-2 whip anger, on deity fully commit to what you are doing
So Thebes can contribute some Cuirs as well while your army still needs them.

Otherwise as many as possible early, more cities captured fast means more cities to whip new units from later.
Oh and ofc less chance to run into some trouble with a bigger army.

Teching i would look at Rifling first, Cavs can fight Grens if an AI gets them. Rifles with plenty losses but still doable if they aren't too big.
Steel (cannons) usually seals the game if an AI can resist Cavs.

Some old WCs can work as cleanup units (plundering)

Good point, I agree. Those two grassland mines whipped away will give more than double hammer efficiency compared to if you just worked them, especially with the health problems.

WCs can also work as cleanup in those 90% fights that you lose when RNG inevitably screws you, but the longbow in the city has 0.3/6 strength left, so anything works in finishing it off. So except if they're ultra-promoted, may not be worth the 170(?) gold to upgrade most of them.

 

[soundjata]

WCs [... ] may not be worth the 170(?) gold to upgrade.

I was thinking upgrade cost = rushbuy cost = 3X.

Tested that and apparently, upgrade cost = 3x + 20

For a chariot into a cuirassier that is (100-30)x3+20= 230

 

[Fish Man]

I was thinking upgrade cost = rushbuy cost = 3X.

Tested that and apparently, upgrade cost = 3x + 20

For a chariot into a cuirassier that is (100-30)x3+20= 230

My bad...I think the 170 value was for HAs. It's even worse, then...

 

[Fippy]

Yup the only good upgrades are free ones with a GG then (spreading xp, WC becomes the leader).
Others are good enuf for plundering, medic, stack scouting, easy battles as Fishman wrote etc.
Or even reducing collateral damage on Cuir stacks.

 

[Pangaea]

Yeah, WC upgrades are very expensive, 230 as mentioned above. I only have 7 left actually, so not a lot, but probably better to keep that money for teching something. Trebs to cannons is really nice at only 80 a pop, but 230 is huge.

I don't like to whip the capital, but maybe one here and there will be okay. Otherwise I'll probably whip everything into the ground, at least for the initial phase. Means commerce will crash, but what can you do, eh? It's important to get a good start, and have a big enough army to keep pushing past those first 1-2 cities. Give the AI less time to mass-produce defenders. And since I can't really mass upgrade myself, whipping probably has to be heavy-handed. It's different if you have HAs, elephants or knights. And a GM or two.

Think the next tech target should be Rifling for Cavs. Those are really strong as long as the AI doesn't get rifles.

 

[Pangaea]

Moscow : I understand that you wanted to time the Heroic Epic with Gunpowder but you really should be working those farms before the mines. Especially if the city is going to build 1 unit every few turns (as opposed to 1-turn units). More pop earlier = more hammers later.

This is a good point. I just wanted to offer an excuse of sorts by saying that I tend to shift tiles around a fair bit, and for the the most part was probably working the farms. Then used nice-costing buildings like 60 monastery or the stable to get good overflow into the HE (I had no marble) with OR+forge bonus. Then work some hammers into the HE, before growing back and repeating the process a few times. Otherwise actually getting up HE would take an eternity. I never did start on the NE, which may have been for the best. If things go well, the game will be over with Cuirs, or at least Cavs.

Perhaps this is over-optimistic thinking again, but I picture declaring on Saladin first, hopefully take him with his pants down. Then later get another front going through Spain and across the landbridge over to Mansa and suchlike. Waging war in two directions can be good with mounted, provided you have the production capacity to replenish losses. With Engineering, they should get to the front in decent time.

 

[Fish Man]

This is a good point. I just wanted to offer an excuse of sorts by saying that I tend to shift tiles around a fair bit, and for the the most part was probably working the farms. Then used nice-costing buildings like 60 monastery or the stable to get good overflow into the HE (I had no marble) with OR+forge bonus. Then work some hammers into the HE, before growing back and repeating the process a few times. Otherwise actually getting up HE would take an eternity. I never did start on the NE, which may have been for the best. If things go well, the game will be over with Cuirs, or at least Cavs.

Perhaps this is over-optimistic thinking again, but I picture declaring on Saladin first, hopefully take him with his pants down. Then later get another front going through Spain and across the landbridge over to Mansa and suchlike. Waging war in two directions can be good with mounted, provided you have the production capacity to replenish losses. With Engineering, they should get to the front in decent time.

Oh, I forgot you didn't have marble. In that case, HE may not have been worth it...Moscow could just work farms and endlessly 2-pop whip, with a wet corn and plains cow and plenty of grassland.

You can definitely go after Saladin first, but I suggested Izzy for reasons mentioned above - she's smaller, not a unitspammer, not pro, and opens the way to rushing down a weakened Giggles + Mansa soon after (and also, capturing the Buddhist holy city/shrine could be nice). Whatever you do, ABSOLUTELY do NOT wage two wars at once. Your land is not good enough to make enough units to take on 2 AIs at the same time, not now at least, and the more you take on at once, the higher the chance of something going horribly wrong, like peacevassaling shenanigans or chain bribes or neither AI capping because "we're afraid of your enemies".

 

[Pangaea]

Suppose it just feels wrong to first DOW the AI I've been trying to get on friendly terms with for the entire game (it's why I kept EP on her for such a long time, although it was also because I actually had tech view on her, which was useful). But it could well be that it makes more sense to go after her first. Though I will also say that from scouting so far, Saladin doesn't have much of an army, probably only the one we can see in that newly settled city. He's been REXing hard for a long time, 14 cities himself, so has not been able to build up a big force yet. So my thinking was to hit him before he can have a huge horde of protective rifles or something sick like that.

I'll have to look over things again, and whether Isabella can bribe somebody if I declare on her instead. Gilgamesh actually has a pretty big stack, so isn't a softy, but he is strained for land, so production capacity isn't the same as a fully grown Saladin (again, why I kinda wanted to hit him first, before he's truly ready with 10+ size cities everywhere).

Think I disagree on Moscow though. It's very nice to have a HE city that can 1-turn units (maybe eventually it can), because I can't keep whipping every second or third turn. Happiness won't allow that in the long run. I also like to nurture the builder in me, and it's cool to have some proper looking cities, at least before they are mostly whipped into the ground. So in that sense I agree with BiC, it's fun to focus on the economy, and is probably one of the reasons I quite enjoy space games. They take an awful long time, but it's fun to grow and build up many large cities with proper infrastructure.

Good point about avoiding two wars at once. I didn't mean from the start, btw, that would be way too risky, but eventually. It's often a sign of a good game when you can rinse over several AIs at once. You need high production capacity for that, but it's fun when it happens.

 

[Fish Man]

Suppose it just feels wrong to first DOW the AI I've been trying to get on friendly terms with for the entire game (it's why I kept EP on her for such a long time, although it was also because I actually had tech view on her, which was useful). But it could well be that it makes more sense to go after her first. Though I will also say that from scouting so far, Saladin doesn't have much of an army, probably only the one we can see in that newly settled city. He's been REXing hard for a long time, 14 cities himself, so has not been able to build up a big force yet. So my thinking was to hit him before he can have a huge horde of protective rifles or something sick like that.

I'll have to look over things again, and whether Isabella can bribe somebody if I declare on her instead. Gilgamesh actually has a pretty big stack, so isn't a softy, but he is strained for land, so production capacity isn't the same as a fully grown Saladin (again, why I kinda wanted to hit him first, before he's truly ready with 10+ size cities everywhere).

Think I disagree on Moscow though. It's very nice to have a HE city that can 1-turn units (maybe eventually it can), because I can't keep whipping every second or third turn. Happiness won't allow that in the long run. I also like to nurture the builder in me, and it's cool to have some proper looking cities, at least before they are mostly whipped into the ground. So in that sense I agree with BiC, it's fun to focus on the economy, and is probably one of the reasons I quite enjoy space games. They take an awful long time, but it's fun to grow and build up many large cities with proper infrastructure.

Good point about avoiding two wars at once. I didn't mean from the start, btw, that would be way too risky, but eventually. It's often a sign of a good game when you can rinse over several AIs at once. You need high production capacity for that, but it's fun when it happens.

Good point about Saladin having 14 cities…I did not reclaims because I didn’t look too closely, I guess. If you get Izzy to friendly, eventually she may even peacevassal to you? Once you whip enough units, which you’re going to do anyways, and roll over Arabia. Maybe just completely kill Saladin to avoid the diplo mess from having a vassal nobody likes.

 

[Fippy]

If Barcelona would be close it'd be too tempting, but it's not so i think Sally first makes sense.