Subdued Animals in C2C discussions

[Noriad2]

8787

• Makes Subdued Animals and Tales cost no unit upkeep.

Is that a wise decision? Some subdued animals have relevant combat strength (gorillas?) and collecting those as e.g. city defense could be overpowered.

N.B. I hope this isn't caused by my post in which I worried about AIs not bringing back animals as I think I misjudged that.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Even with high relative combat strength, they don't have any capacity to develop city defense modifiers so I doubt they would hold up to a good city attack stack. The AI is the one that suffers the most from the animals and it's always been a bit too rough on the early game imo. See how it plays out. If I wasn't confident it would be good for the mod I wouldn't have implemented it but if others disagree it's easily reverted.

EDIT: After some playtesting, gold income is a bit too high without SOME drag from animals. I reset subdued back to -50% rather than -100%. Still not too worried about combat strength on subdued animals. Besides, DH and I have been looking at giving all subdued animals a 0 str anyhow and this could be as good an argument as others that have been brought up for that.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Subdued animals represent a couple of non-combat handlers and some young of the animal type subdued. They are designed to build stuff not undertake combat. They may still be useful for recon.

What is happening

1. When you subdue an animal you also get the food and other yields from the hunt so the "Butcher" mission will no longer give yields! This means I am more open to Rwn's hunting yield suggestions.
   
   
2. Subdued Units will have combat strength of zero and be captured using the normal capture mechanism
   
3. If a bonus is placed you still get the yields but I am thinking of doubling them in this case.

This is what I am currently working on and testing before getting onto the city screen.

edit Kangaroos, Crab and Camel did not have a chance of putting a bonus on the map - they will.

 

[Faustmouse]

I actually really enjoyed his dangerous hunting modmod and I think it should be included in the main mod. It just makes the early game so much more interesting that it is a shame really that the default player has to take the "boring" version.
Maybe it can be included as option first so more players have access to it and can tell us how they feel about it? IIRC his modmod got almost only positive feedback, even from Joseph

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I actually really enjoyed his dangerous hunting modmod and I think it should be included in the main mod. It just makes the early game so much more interesting that it is a shame really that the default player has to take the "boring" version.
Maybe it can be included as option first so more players have access to it and can tell us how they feel about it? IIRC his modmod got almost only positive feedback, even from Joseph

Except I hate it - or did last time I played it. There have been a large number of changes to hunting that have been snuck in that I also don't like.

Added some info to previous posting

 

[Toffer90]

I actually really enjoyed his dangerous hunting modmod and I think it should be included in the main mod. It just makes the early game so much more interesting that it is a shame really that the default player has to take the "boring" version.
Maybe it can be included as option first so more players have access to it and can tell us how they feel about it? IIRC his modmod got almost only positive feedback, even from Joseph

Dangerous hunting is far from nuanced enough to be in the main mod IMO. I agree that we could ramp up a few aspects of the hunting game but let's not overdo it.

 

[JosEPh_II]

While I enjoyed it and gave it a , current v 1.04 would need some rework to be "more" compatible with v36. So I would have to agree more with Toffer's assessment.

Now for those that Must play on the longer game speeds it makes for a very challenging Prehistoric Era, If you choose a huge or bigger map and keep the starting AI under 12.

I'd rather see a Scenario based on those conditions than an incorporation "as is" into the Main mod.

JosEPh

 

[strategyonly]

Anything dealing with Animals is up to DH, so his input is the version which i go by . . .SO

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The changes have been made to the subdued animals but this will only affect newly subdued animals unless a recalc now updates the units.

I am not sure what will happen when you capture someone elses subdued animal. If you attack one you should capture it 100% of the time. I think I have set it up to teleport to your nearest city but I am not sure that is a good thing game wise.

 

[Noriad2]

I am not sure what will happen when you capture someone elses subdued animal. If you attack one you should capture it 100% of the time.

Note that hunters target animals in a stack first. Combined with 100% success rate, the best way to capture animals would be to park some hunters close to an enemy civ (in a defensible position) and snipe animals from AI hunting stacks returning home?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Note that hunters target animals in a stack first. Combined with 100% success rate, the best way to capture animals would be to park some hunters close to an enemy civ (in a defensible position) and snipe animals from AI hunting stacks returning home?

That is exactly what the barbarians do!

edit The current way I have defined the XML means I could reduce the chance to capture but the way it is supposed to work is the same as with workers, you attack you capture.

 

[JosEPh_II]

If you have a stack of subdued animals (some totally healed) and move them from one city to another and they get exposed/unguarded/ lose escort in unclaimed territory between the cities, then 1 Wild animal can wipe out the Whole stack with 1 Attack? Why can 1 Wild animal take out multiple SA units? Is it not possible to code it so that it's a 1 to 1 ratio on attacks? So if 1 Hawk attacks a stack of 6 SAs only 1 SA should be lost and not the Whole stack? Doesn't that seem more fair/right?

JosEPh

 

[strategyonly]

So if 1 Hawk attacks a stack of 6 SAs only 1 SA should be lost and not the Whole stack? Doesn't that seem more fair/right?

JosEPh

that goes for workers also, cant stand it when ALL my (stacked) workers get lost by 1 attack . .

 

[Thunderbrd]

If you have a stack of subdued animals (some totally healed) and move them from one city to another and they get exposed/unguarded/ lose escort in unclaimed territory between the cities, then 1 Wild animal can wipe out the Whole stack with 1 Attack? Why can 1 Wild animal take out multiple SA units? Is it not possible to code it so that it's a 1 to 1 ratio on attacks? So if 1 Hawk attacks a stack of 6 SAs only 1 SA should be lost and not the Whole stack? Doesn't that seem more fair/right?

JosEPh

that goes for workers also, cant stand it when ALL my (stacked) workers get lost by 1 attack . .

I'm not going to say it's impossible. It would be a tough project since it fights the grain of the original programming and would have quite a few considerations to make as one goes about it. I can look into trying this at some point. Again, more difficult than it may seem at first.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

If you have a stack of subdued animals (some totally healed) and move them from one city to another and they get exposed/unguarded/ lose escort in unclaimed territory between the cities, then 1 Wild animal can wipe out the Whole stack with 1 Attack? Why can 1 Wild animal take out multiple SA units? Is it not possible to code it so that it's a 1 to 1 ratio on attacks? So if 1 Hawk attacks a stack of 6 SAs only 1 SA should be lost and not the Whole stack? Doesn't that seem more fair/right?

JosEPh

Were they wiped out or captured? If wiped out then there is an error, as I expected and am fixing at this time.

I disagree with that mechanic. I think it is more realistic that they all are captured. I may consider the idea that some may escape if there are a lot of them but it should be less than (say) one in ten if attacked by a human unit. Maybe one to one if it is a wild animal attacking and killed rather than captured (not easy to define or do). In both cases the attacker should occupy the plot and any fleeing units should randomly move into a valid neighbouring plot to represent disorganised flight from danger.

BTW missionaries and corporate execs have the same issue.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Were they wiped out or captured? If wiped out then there is an error, as I expected and am fixing at this time.

I disagree with that mechanic. I think it is more realistic that they all are captured. I may consider the idea that some may escape if there are a lot of them but it should be less than (say) one in ten if attacked by a human unit. Maybe one to one if it is a wild animal attacking and killed rather than captured (not easy to define or do). In both cases the attacker should occupy the plot and any fleeing units should randomly move into a valid neighbouring plot to represent disorganised flight from danger.

BTW missionaries and corporate execs have the same issue.

A few points to make here.

1) The dll has this capturing function built in for 0 str units. All you need to do is define the <Capture> tag for a 0 str unit and when attacked by a unit that CAN capture then it will automatically be captured and converted to the <Capture> tag designated unit type. (100% chance)

2) When such a capture-capable unit attacks and does not find a valid defender (0 str units are not valid defenders so won't come up before other units regardless of their type and the attacker's targeting preference) then it automatically moves in and captures all 0 str units with a defined capture type on that plot.

3) I agree with your assessment that only 1 should be captured (that others have stated as well) and your suggestion of them all running off and scattering is an idea that might be easier than trying to hold back the attacker from moving in and capturing them all. I can look into trying to recode that but it is definitely in the dll to do so.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

A few points to make here.

1) The dll has this capturing function built in for 0 str units. All you need to do is define the <Capture> tag for a 0 str unit and when attacked by a unit that CAN capture then it will automatically be captured and converted to the <Capture> tag designated unit type. (100% chance)

2) When such a capture-capable unit attacks and does not find a valid defender (0 str units are not valid defenders so won't come up before other units regardless of their type and the attacker's targeting preference) then it automatically moves in and captures all 0 str units with a defined capture type on that plot.

3) I agree with your assessment that only 1 should be captured (that others have stated as well) and your suggestion of them all running off and scattering is an idea that might be easier than trying to hold back the attacker from moving in and capturing them all. I can look into trying to recode that but it is definitely in the dll to do so.

1) I know and now use it but I was trying to be Wisperr friendly and have them teleport to the nearest city. It does not work so it is back to the capture with my latest update.

3) only one if wild animal. If it is a non-wild animal attacking they should have a good chance of getting the lot. My suggestion was a 1 in 10 chance of fleeing but I would change it to something like

• always capture the first 10
  
  
• for the next 10 - each in that 10 has a 1 in 10 chance of escape
  
  
• for greater than 20 - each above 20 has a 50% chance of escape

 

[Thunderbrd]

1) I know and now use it but I was trying to be Wisperr friendly and have them teleport to the nearest city. It does not work so it is back to the capture with my latest update.

ah... yeah. However, it's not that important to consider because if you already have subdued animal initial captures teleporting back then how often will you have a situation where you capture subdued animals? Once transported, it's unlikely you'll catch too many subdued animals en-route elsewhere and that's an entirely different issue anyhow, and one that if you capture with a HN unit the animal will automatically become a 'captive' unit type and HN so works like any other captive.

3) only one if wild animal. If it is a non-wild animal attacking they should have a good chance of getting the lot. My suggestion was a 1 in 10 chance of fleeing but I would change it to something like

• always capture the first 10
  
  
• for the next 10 - each in that 10 has a 1 in 10 chance of escape
  
  
• for greater than 20 - each above 20 has a 50% chance of escape

Interesting but to manipulate it I would probably need to implement this as a general rule for all normal default 0 str capture situations. Capture the first and let the rest flee would be a good rule of thumb imo though I could see a tag that would give units the ability to herd more captives than just one when capturing a stack of 0strs.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Were they wiped out or captured? If wiped out then there is an error, as I expected and am fixing at this time.

The 1 hawk wiped out 6 SAs. I had moved the Hunter escort off the tile they were on to try to capture a mouflon. The the combat chart only listed 1 but all six were gone.

I disagree with that mechanic. I think it is more realistic that they all are captured. I may consider the idea that some may escape if there are a lot of them but it should be less than (say) one in ten if attacked by a human unit. Maybe one to one if it is a wild animal attacking and killed rather than captured (not easy to define or do). In both cases the attacker should occupy the plot and any fleeing units should randomly move into a valid neighbouring plot to represent disorganised flight from danger.

BTW missionaries and corporate execs have the same issue.

If it's too hard to code then It's something that will have to be lived with I suppose.

And now that you can't butcher in the field or in a city the toll on gold/turn from having several hunters out each with a train of SAs in tow is costly. Some of the 1 Culture choices are meh, but I suppose getting 1 culture is better than nothing heh.

I did notice that when a Unit captures or kills a wild animal (doesn't matter which one) that there is a hammer and food immediate return. I suppose this is the mechanism that replaced butchering.

I still have not figured out how to "plant" a SA as a resource.

The Animal Herder Bldg, does it produce tamed animals that can be used to build herds for a city? I'm not sure it's working or I'm don't have the proper SA's in the city?

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Interesting but to manipulate it I would probably need to implement this as a general rule for all normal default 0 str capture situations. Capture the first and let the rest flee would be a good rule of thumb imo though I could see a tag that would give units the ability to herd more captives than just one when capturing a stack of 0strs.

I would go with all as much better than only capture "first". It will be far to tedious otherwise.

If you are going to have a tag for how many can be captured then OK no problem as long as you cater for stack attacks where a number of units are attacking/moving to that plot at the same time so each captures as many as it can.

The 1 hawk wiped out 6 SAs. I had moved the Hunter escort off the tile they were on to try to capture a mouflon. The the combat chart only listed 1 but all six were gone.



If it's too hard to code then It's something that will have to be lived with I suppose.

And now that you can't butcher in the field or in a city the toll on gold/turn from having several hunters out each with a train of SAs in tow is costly. Some of the 1 Culture choices are meh, but I suppose getting 1 culture is better than nothing heh.

I did notice that when a Unit captures or kills a wild animal (doesn't matter which one) that there is a hammer and food immediate return. I suppose this is the mechanism that replaced butchering.

I still have not figured out how to "plant" a SA as a resource.

The Animal Herder Bldg, does it produce tamed animals that can be used to build herds for a city? I'm not sure it's working or I'm don't have the proper SA's in the city?

JosEPh

1. Fixed the not capturing in the latest update so you should be able to chase after them and recapture them.

2. Yes all combat now gives yields as if you kill. They may give a subdued animal or "find" a resource. I may consider increasing the yields or doing something else but not right now.edit You should be getting a lot more culture/science now that I rationalised that mission - I get 44

3. Only horses and cattle and perhaps sheep can plant resources at the moment. Where and what depends on your technology. Horses can be planted on flat grass or plains without forest, bamboo, ancient forest or savanna early on - you get a horse resource you need to work. After Iron Working you can plant them in more places and get a trail and pasture as well.

4. Animal Herder is an early Animal Breeder it is in proof of concept stage at the moment. You get a breeding pair which is a bit better than a subdued animal of the same type. I think I have done the same animals as the subdued animals that can place their resource.