[BTS] Subjective :- Best Leader / Civ combination (player plays)

[Fish Man]

Yeah, I think numidians are alright.
They are abit worse against archers than normal HAs, but they are much better against melee.
And the free promotion they get add some punch to HA->Cuir upgrades.

The Jaguar is abit annoying in most games, but in heavily jungled/forested areas they are really nice. having a bunch of woody3 jaguars that obliterate all opposition in forests are sweet.
They are very situational though, sort of like the gallic warrior guerilla shenanigans only that they are worse (cities can't be built in forests).
But they are abit cheaper too... But that can be annoying when you want to whip after forges (or in police state).

Don't agree that swords are mostly useless either.

@civac

"Numidian Cavalry with 6 strength get odds against spears on flatland. That would be absurd."

But conquistadors basically countering their supposed hard counter (they easily beat pikes on flat land unpromoted, elephants usually too), and getting winning odds against basically 90% of defending units fortified, in cities, isn't absurd? Swords, maces, sometimes even pikes, knights, trebs, catapults, crossbows usually, longbows sometimes, basically anything that isn't a musket...

Also, numcavs would still easily lose to elephants, longbows, or any medieval-era unit with this buff. But conks have no such weaknesses until rifles, which AIs refuse to get for a long time.

Some UUs are very clearly unbalanced, and strengthening numidian cavs would lean them more towards "overpowered" sure, but they would still not be as strong as the best UUs in the game. Maybe we can also remove the free flanking promotion to nerf them a bit? This change would certainly make them more fun to use, avoiding situations where say a pro hilltop archer kills a quarter of your army in a single turn. And also making them not completely melt at the sight of even just regular enemy horse archers. And at the end of the day, isn't that what matters in a game like this?

 

[civac]

These situations are not comparable.

Against Conquistadors you typically have the movement advantage due to Engineering and Construction. You also have the option to soften them up with catapults (even cannons are not unreasonable, they are almost peer tech) which also are faster in your own culture. Against 6 power numids it's very difficult to do anything except turtle in walled cities. Your spears are not faster than them, they can even be slower with river terrain and you typically won't have catapults. It's way too easy for the numids to run circles around you and pick off fringe cities and pillage until the defense collapses.

 

[Fish Man]

These situations are not comparable.

Against Conquistadors you typically have the movement advantage due to Engineering and Construction. You also have the option to soften them up with catapults (even cannons are not unreasonable, they are almost peer tech) which also are faster in your own culture. Against 6 power numids it's very difficult to do anything except turtle in walled cities. Your spears are not faster than them, they can even be slower with river terrain and you typically won't have catapults. It's way too easy for the numids to run circles around you and pick off fringe cities and pillage until the defense collapses.

Ah, I'm talking about singleplayer here, which is probably where the misunderstanding comes in.

In SP against the AI, they will never use either unit effectively against you, even if numids were buffed accordingly. Nor will they be able to defend against either unit with any degree of success. While attacking, AIs will never separate their stacks, and move one tile at a time, leaving them wide open to counterattacks or you just stacking archers, preferably elephants too. Trust me, I've seen the best that classical AI warfare has to offer, and I'm not impressed.

But for multiplayer...from the games I've seen, everyone tries to get construction and elephants as fast as humanly possible, and once jumbos enter the stage, numids are still as good as dead. And even there, praets are arguably stronger, because you can get them even earlier and they absolutely chew through everything, including axes, with enough CR promos.

 

[civac]

Nah. I understood that but if you buff numids you buff them universally. If you changed them to 6 Strength and +25 against melee they would still be horrifying (better than Keshiks I think) but not break anything too badly.

The problem in MP is that a HA rush is faster then teching Math and Construction (and Writing). Elephants counter HAs very hard. The thing about elephants is that they counter everything else too so they are often banned or nerfed (in MP-specific mods, usually to 7 base strengths). They also require even more tech than just Math, Construction. Praetorians are powerful too but they only move one tile per turn and have a reasonable soft counter in axes.

 

[Lennier]

Yeah, I was just half-jokingly implying that "change my mind" doesn't make much sense. It's your mind, you change it if you want to!

He was just looking for a good arugment.

 

[Powerfaker]

Settler Level (BC) Space Race => Mehmet of Aztecs

Aztecs (jaguar/altars):
- starts with scout => for hut popping
- starts with Myst/Hunt. You get Agri/Wheel/Mining for free on settler level
- 2xp Jaguars get doube woody, so they travel from capital to capital faster (to conquer). Timing is right, because most AI have a worker by then (say 3000BC and onwards)
- Courthouses are needed to offset corps maintenance, so cheaper Altars are nice. Even better that they help with the severe whipping you have to do in such a short time frame

Mehmet exp/org)
- Lots of reductions on key buildings (Gran/LightH/CourtH/Factory, Harbour not key but also nice). On settler level production is more critical than teching. The AI produce nothing for you and maintenance is super low
- Org does provide some economic comfort. Its significance starts when you conquer the widely spread capitals.
- Cheap workers of which you need to prodcue 80+ (even 100+ maybe) , while 2 pop whips are still doable if you prefer that.

I tried something with Frederic/Aztecs. Didn't need Philosophic that much. With 3-4 high food former capitals, which are always there, I produced more GP than I needed. Also Oxford is better skipped when only 3 cities need a Uni and you have to produce 8. Will try Mehmet next when I feel like playing this kind of game.

edit: assuming marathon, large map etc, all the optimized conditions

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Unrestricted leaders. This topic has reappeared once a year for over a decade now. Never grows old.

My concept of "best combination" needs to be useful in a variety of map settings, difficulties, and game speeds. I don't like Rome because iron is not easy to find or is often in snow and desert.

My personal favourite is Ragnar (aggressive, financial) of China.

Research bronze working, find copper, train axeman. If no copper, research animal husbandry, find horses, train chariots. Since you researched The Wheel and start with agriculture, research pottery next and support your newly-acquired cities with riverside cottages.

 

[drewisfat]

I still think the boring answer of HC of the Incans wins. I wouldn't want to trade out IND for PHI, because there's a bit of anti-synergy between PHI and FIN that doesn't exist with IND.

But if you want an interesting answer.......... Tokugawa of the French!

 

[Nick723]

I still think the boring answer of HC of the Incans wins. I wouldn't want to trade out IND for PHI, because there's a bit of anti-synergy between PHI and FIN that doesn't exist with IND.

But if you want an interesting answer.......... Tokugawa of the French!

That does sound fun! Is there a quick way to get to gunpowder?

Surely Shaka or Boudicca m of the Inca have to be up there, for the ultimate Quechua rushes

 

[SittinDown]

What happens if you have an aggressive leader with a Quechua? I assume the free Combat 1 promotion wasted.

 

[krikav]

Almost certainly wasted.
Cyrus traits are perhaps better suited for Quencha ruches? Imp/Cha
Not sure if GGenerals play any role in such games though.

 

[SittinDown]

Tokugawa of the French!

Neat concept.
Combat 1, Drill 1, 2x move musketeers.... seems like a potential for an alternative Cuirassier or Knight. Muskets are pretty under powered. But with the extra move and extra promotions, and lower hammers, it could be at least interesting, and unlike the mounted units, pikes are not a problem. Can get gunpowder earlier too.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

I still think spiritual is by far the best trait. It lets you exploit all sorts of strategies that you otherwise might not. Second to that I'd say probably industrious for the extra hammers when rushing the most vital of all wonders, the great wall.

 

[crashmon]

I still think spiritual is by far the best trait. It lets you exploit all sorts of strategies that you otherwise might not. Second to that I'd say probably industrious for the extra hammers when rushing the most vital of all wonders, the great wall.

Yea, this is why when I first move up a level of difficulty, or am still learning at a difficulty level (like my shadow game), I go for Ramesses instead of HC. Ram is my go-to guy until I get comfortable on a level, then I switch to other leaders. Although its forges boost more than wonders which is why I like Ind, + mids. Spi + mids is so powerful.

Although I just won a game with Bismark on Monarch (one I have been playing along side the shadow game), and Bismark is not Spi, so some of the lessons from that thread might be sticking

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Workshops are nice, don't get me wrong. But at least for me on higher difficulty level having complete and utter immunity from barbarians is just priceless. It's literally like dropping the game a difficulty level or two. Which is why all my strategies involve rushing for the great wall.

 

[Qactus]

That does sound fun! Is there a quick way to get to gunpowder?
...

In the somewhat recent Ottoman cookbook game which I think you played as well, there was one player who pursued a Gunpowder bulb strategy. You might want to look into that, though from what I recall there was a considerable sacrifice involved, avoid Pottery I think?

Workshops are nice, don't get me wrong. But at least for me on higher difficulty level having complete and utter immunity from barbarians is just priceless. It's literally like dropping the game a difficulty level or two. Which is why all my strategies involve rushing for the great wall.

Hmmm, what difficulty do you consider higher levels? On some deity maps you might not see a single barbarian unit, only AI borders of all colours encroaching from all directions. Great Wall can certainly be a nice wonder under the right circumstances, with vast open land that is hard to fogbust being one of them.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Hmmm, what difficulty do you consider higher levels? On some deity maps you might not see a single barbarian unit, only AI borders of all colours encroaching from all directions. Great Wall can certainly be a nice wonder under the right circumstances, with vast open land that is hard to fogbust being one of them.

It's not so much difficulty levels as it's the type of maps and speeds I like to play on. Those being very large and very slow respectively.

 

[sampsa]

Yea, this is why when I first move up a level of difficulty, or am still learning at a difficulty level (like my shadow game), I go for Ramesses instead of HC. Ram is my go-to guy until I get comfortable on a level, then I switch to other leaders. Although its forges boost more than wonders which is why I like Ind, + mids. Spi + mids is so powerful.

For me, FIN and CRE are the two traits that make everything in general so much easier on every level and are probably the easiest two to use (or harder to misuse to be exact). Something like Mids is already a huge luxury and becoming too dependent on wonders will eventually stall your development. Half-priced forges are nice, but hardly better than half-priced libraries or granaries.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

Yea, this is why when I first move up a level of difficulty, or am still learning at a difficulty level (like my shadow game), I go for Ramesses instead of HC. Ram is my go-to guy until I get comfortable on a level, then I switch to other leaders. Although its forges boost more than wonders which is why I like Ind, + mids. Spi + mids is so powerful.

I am going to try Ramesses in my next game as I am moving back up to Monarch, where I always lose. Thanks for the good tip!

 

[ArchGhost]

I do occasionally play the guilty pleasure Willem/China game for funsies. Adding Mining to that CRE/FIN + Agri combo is dirty.

Strongest combo is always gonna include PHI, it's just the best trait in almost any situation. Normal, tech trading off, iso, whatever. it would take a lot of food poor land or an advanced start to take the teeth out of faster GPPs whether they're used for bulbing, bulb + trade, starting GAs, funding expenses (have definitely floated a war or two with GM gold!), even corporations or simply settling them like in a OCC.

Philosophical + flavor trait of your choice with China's techs. Best development curve in the game for broadest number of starts, being able to farm and mine by default with a straight shot to BW is incredible for starting techs. Even without Fishing on coastal start you can still BW early instead and chop while teching Fishing. I've gone settler first with China in a few games with an Ivory/PH or Marble to settle on even. The starting tech combo is stupid good.
Liz
Pericles
Peter
etc. basically just not SB as without Dogs he leaves a lot of utility on the floor and unlike AGG on Alex which can be useful for barbs, chokes, or axe rushing, PRO is entirely garbage...though with China's UU, he can still put it to some use, enhancing a Machinery rush a bit.

--------------------------------

if factoring UU/UBs over starting techs: combos of Philosophical/Charismatic/Expansive along with another flavor trait of choice with
India's Mining + Fast Worker
or
Inca's Quecha + Terrace.

CHA can take advantage of the Myst start of either civ, while EXP leaders will really like the Terrace or possible even faster Fast Workers
Peter
Pacal
Hannibal
Lincoln
Washington


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Gandhi and Pacal are already pretty good pick packages as they are and rank really high on my default combo ranking, as well as HC for obvious reasons. All have good trait combos, and start with the best starting tech, Mining. Could do with a better tech than Myst but it at least lets them pop borders without being CRE, they have good UUs, and HC doesn't even need the Monuments.

Of the three non-existent trait combos, I would love to play CRE/CHA the most I think, free border pops and +2 early happiness, cheap Libraries? Hell yeah. PHI/IND and PRO/ORG just aren't as appealing especially the more I play the less luster IND has.

Worst combos? There is utility in any starting tech combo --for instance, PRO + Hunting on Charlie (a unique pairing, btw) means quick empowered archers for barbs or choking, Myst starts can pop their borders earlier, fishing lets you work water for commerce to tech a bit more, etc --- but eliminating synergy with the leader traits or uniques makes things a whole lot worse on top of economic trouble.

Hunting/Myst (Celts, Aztec, HRE) or Fishing/Myst (Spain only) is the worst tech start combo depending on the map -- Fishing is obviously much worse if you are inland, and vice-versa with Hunting if you're coastal and there's less need for Archery. Hunting/Fishing (Greek, Vikings) is also not so great but offers double the chance to allow food improvement immediately...though in exchange for a better tech, like Wheel or Mining. A caveat is that Spain had excellent warfaring Uniques despite the crappy techs, though nothing is boosted by AGG/PRO.

So take a leader without powerful traits and plop them on one of those tech combos, preferrably on a civ they don't have UU synergy with (Toku can for instance improve Gallics and Landsknekts as well as benefit from Hunting for PRO archers early). Remember that any PRO leader can benefit from a Hunting starting tech, which is usually unique to Charlie.
Charlie/Spain or Celts
Toku/Spain
Genghis/Vikings or Spain
Saladin/Spain

Of those, Charlie/Celts or Genghis/Vikings seem especially terrible, even though GK is still Aggressive like Ragnar....zerks aren't that good, Hunting robs you of the starting AGG warrior, and he doesn't back it with FIN.