Suggestion for Game of the Month Announcements

[psparky]

Thanks very much for this effort, psparky! I've long thought of doing the same but was too lazy. One other very subtle and generally unimportant thing that I suspect differs among the versions is what happens to your units when they are "teleported" because of expanded or suddenly closed AI borders. I recall that early in CivIV history, you could arrange things to teleport to unexplored islands by cleverly positioning a unit before an AI's border popped--that may have been changed in a Vanilla patch.

Thanks for the comments. For the moment, I don't plan on mentioning this, unless someone comes up with a concrete difference - you say it may have been patched in Vanilla anyway, so there may now be no difference between the three games.

A more important difference is that in Vanilla (and Warlords??), captured workers can move that same turn--in BTS they have 0 movement.

This is a good one - I'll definitely add it - anyone happen to know the answer for WL?

 

[psparky]

I think the simplest way to provide this as a resource is to link to this thread in each game announcement post. I propose to stick this thread and rename it - something like "Differences between BtS, Warlords and Vanilla".

I was thinking of trying to iron out a few of the wrinkles in this thread, and then maybe start a new thread with a better list. However, there doesn't seem to be a lot wrong with the first draft, so I'm completely happy for you to do whatever you think is best

I would like to publish a corrected, more complete list with links at some point. Would it be better to edit the original post (if I still can) or publish a new version in a new reply?

 

[AlanH]

Yet another sticky thread is probably not a great idea.

A good suggestion from leif:

If you can consolidate the information into a single post - edit the existing post if that works for you, or create a new one if you prefer. We can add it as the second post in a reworked Welcome thread, and link to it from game announcements. Then if players come up with new information to add to it later, they can comment in that thread, and we can edit changes into the consolidated post.

 

[Xcalibrator]

I think that in Vanilla (and Warlords?), using a Great Artist as a culture bomb in a revolting city immediately stops the revolt--but not in BTS.

 

[azzaman333]

Thanks for the information.

The quoted text comes from GOTM14 which was played with version 1.61. I don't see any evidence that the situation was changed by patches to Vanilla or WL. I presume the difference applies to all non ocean-going units (Workboat, Galley and Ironclad for Van, add Trireme for WL). So I propose the following addition to the list for Vanilla:

• Workboat, Galley and Ironclad cannot enter an Ocean tile with enemy culture when at war

For BTS, I note that for Workboat (only) the 'pedia entry says "cannot enter ocean (until Astronomy)". I take this to mean that when Astronomy is discovered, Workboats become ocean-going, and follow the rules for that type of unit. Might this be what you were thinking of?

Would anyone be prepared to test how it all works in BTS using WB? (I guess post here before you start to avoid duplication of effort). I think the parameters are the four non ocean-going units mentioned above, an ocean tile in a foreign civ's culture borders where our relationship is OB, at war, or neither of these, and does Astro make any difference. As I said, I'm not really well placed to do this sort of thing, as I have only minimal WB experience, almost all my saves are HOF/BUFFY so can't be used with WB to give a base to work on, and I don't trust myself to have thought of all the issues or use WB correctly.

Work Boats definitely can enter ocean tiles post-Astro, regardless of culture (unless closed borders).

 

[Deckhand]

Work Boats definitely can enter ocean tiles post-Astro, regardless of culture (unless closed borders).

Only in BtS. IIRC
This is distinct from culture dependent ocean going conditions.

 

[azzaman333]

Only in BtS. IIRC
This is distinct from culture dependent ocean going conditions.

Oh yeah, forgot to specify that.

 

[psparky]

I think that in Vanilla (and Warlords?), using a Great Artist as a culture bomb in a revolting city immediately stops the revolt--but not in BTS.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Just to make sure i'm talking about the right thing, I think this state is called Resistance, and occurs when a city is captured or when a revolution occurs.

The BtS 'pedia entry for Resistance states that it can be ended by a GA - the same as for the other games. However this could just mean they forgot to update the entry. My brief search of the forums failed to find any relevant discussion. How sure are you that your suggestion is correct, or can anyone else corroborate this? Also, does anyone know which rule applies to WL?

 

[psparky]

Thanks to those who have contributed to the discussions on the mobility of Workboats and naval units. This post attempts to consolidate the information and to identify the areas still to be resolved.

Regarding Workboats and Astronomy, it seems clear that Workboats become ocean-going upon the discovery of Astronomy in BtS only. So the following will be added to the list for WL:

• Workboat does not become ocean-going with Astronomy

Regarding the question of whether non ocean-going vessels can enter ocean squares within the culture borders of another civilization, for Vanilla and WL the the rules are known, based on the information from GOTM14. There are three possible states - Open Borders, at War, and neither OB nor at War.

For Vanilla - OB:Yes, War:No, Neither:No
For Warlords - OB:Yes, War:Yes, Neither:No

This gives the item for the vanilla list:

• Workboat, Galley and Ironclad cannot enter an Ocean tile within enemy culture borders when at war

I am still hoping that someone will investigate in detail the situation for BtS. I have reason to believe the rules are different again, possibly:

For BtS - OB:No, War:No, Neither:No

Also, does it make a difference if the civ in question is a vassal or a colony, of yourself of someone else?

 

[azzaman333]

I am still hoping that someone will investigate in detail the situation for BtS. I have reason to believe the rules are different again, possibly:

For BtS - OB:No, War:No, Neither:No

Also, does it make a difference if the civ in question is a vassal or a colony, of yourself of someone else?

I haven't properly tested it, but from memory a vassal's culture is effectively your own for determining this. Non-vassals I don't believe you can enter their ocean tiles at all pre-Astro.

 

[shyuhe]

I think you can stop an SS launch in vanilla by capturing the enemy capital.

 

[psparky]

I think you can stop an SS launch in vanilla by capturing the enemy capital.

Thanks for the suggestion.

I've been searching for confirmation of this but found some contradictions. I think it's clear that in BTS you can stop a spaceship after launch in this way. The question is over whether capturing before launch has any affect, for each game.

For WL, we have a report of it not stopping the spaceship in a recent WOTM.

For BtS, I found a post that indicates it does not stop it.

For Vanilla, I found a post on another website saying it didn't work there either:

To stop a civ from winning the Space Race (very annoying, must disable
that victory in the future ) I sent a fleet of battleships and
transports with 25 units of panzers and mech inf to hover outside the
enemy capital, and leveled it when he was two components away from
victory. Yet the F8 victory conditions screen *still* showed him as two
components from victory, so I felt compelled to level all his cities to
be safe. Question is, is this yet another bug, or does Civ4 not allow
you to scuttle an opponent's space race with a capital conquest, like
civ3 did?

(the posting date 2005 indicates this must be Vanilla I think)

Obviously you are a vastly more experienced player, but I suppose it's not impossible that you have remembered wrongly. No disrespect intended, I just want the list to be as correct as I can make it so I wanted to show you what I found for your consideration. If you can confirm that your suggestion is true, I will of course update the list - can you also tell me what happens pre-launch in BtS. Also, is the effect to destroy all components built so far?

 

[psparky]

I haven't properly tested it, but from memory a vassal's culture is effectively your own for determining this. Non-vassals I don't believe you can enter their ocean tiles at all pre-Astro.

Thanks. It seems to me that Astro makes no difference here - so in BtS, your non ocean-going vessels can never enter ocean in another civ's culture border (except your vassals).

 

[Xcalibrator]

Thanks for the suggestion.

Just to make sure i'm talking about the right thing, I think this state is called Resistance, and occurs when a city is captured or when a revolution occurs.

The BtS 'pedia entry for Resistance states that it can be ended by a GA - the same as for the other games. However this could just mean they forgot to update the entry. My brief search of the forums failed to find any relevant discussion. How sure are you that your suggestion is correct, or can anyone else corroborate this? Also, does anyone know which rule applies to WL?

Yeah, yeah, "resistance," that's what I meant. Sorry I haven't been able to confirm this yet--tried in a couple old xOTM games but apparently you can't WorldBuild in them. After I'm finished with GOTM68 and have some time I'll try again.

In the meantime... I believe that seige units can attack from boats in Vanilla (and Warlords?) but not in BTS. I'll try to confirm this, unless someone knows definitively.

 

[AlanH]

Yeah, yeah, "resistance," that's what I meant. Sorry I haven't been able to confirm this yet--tried in a couple old xOTM games but apparently you can't WorldBuild in them. After I'm finished with GOTM68 and have some time I'll try again.

All the game results pages provide links to the WorldBuilder files that were used to build the start files.

 

[shyuhe]

Thanks for the suggestion.

I've been searching for confirmation of this but found some contradictions. I think it's clear that in BTS you can stop a spaceship after launch in this way. The question is over whether capturing before launch has any affect, for each game.

For WL, we have a report of it not stopping the spaceship in a recent WOTM.

For BtS, I found a post that indicates it does not stop it.

For Vanilla, I found a post on another website saying it didn't work there either:


(the posting date 2005 indicates this must be Vanilla I think)

Obviously you are a vastly more experienced player, but I suppose it's not impossible that you have remembered wrongly. No disrespect intended, I just want the list to be as correct as I can make it so I wanted to show you what I found for your consideration. If you can confirm that your suggestion is true, I will of course update the list - can you also tell me what happens pre-launch in BtS. Also, is the effect to destroy all components built so far?

For BtS, it needs to have launched. Capturing the capital while the SS is in flight stops their attempt. I think spies are the only way to stop an SS victory in warlords (sucky). I've definitely stopped a vanilla effort by capturing the AI's capital.

 

[shyuhe]

In the meantime... I believe that seige units can attack from boats in Vanilla (and Warlords?) but not in BTS. I'll try to confirm this, unless someone knows definitively.

This is correct. They removed amphibious siege in BtS as they were too powerful.

 

[psparky]

For BtS, it needs to have launched. Capturing the capital while the SS is in flight stops their attempt. I think spies are the only way to stop an SS victory in warlords (sucky). I've definitely stopped a vanilla effort by capturing the AI's capital.

Thanks for the update.

Just for clarification, for WL, I'm right that you didn't mean to suggest that there is a special "stop spaceship" spy mission. Presumably in all three games you can delay a SS launch by sabotaging the build of a component, or capturing or razing a city where a component is being built.

Basically, in WL there is no way to kill a SS component once it's built, whereas you kill all completed components by capturing the capital after launch in BtS, or before launch in vanilla.

Also, in BtS and Vanilla, I presume razing the capital has the same effect as capturing it.

 

[shyuhe]

Also, in BtS and Vanilla, I presume razing the capital has the same effect as capturing it.

I believe so. Also, you can blow-up completed components using spies in BtS.

 

[psparky]

The following is a list of the main differences a BtS player would see when playing a Warlords or vanilla GOTM. The aim was to produce checklist that could be read in a few minutes, covering the most significant and the most often forgotten differences between the games.

Warlords:

• Anarchy can occur during Golden Age, first Golden Age uses two Great Persons (not one), no +100% GPP
• Space win occurs at launch, capturing or razing capital does not destroy completed components, all components must be built, different tech requirements for components (see below for further change in vanilla)
• Siege can kill, no Flank attack against Siege, Siege can attack from boats
• Key interface differences - no prechop control, no WHEOOHRN indicator, no capitulation alert, cannot examine captured cities
• Stonehenge and Obelisks/Monuments obsolete at Calendar (not Astronomy)
• Captured Workers can move on same turn
• No gold from excess production overflow
• Simple air combat and no air promotions, no XP from airports, unlimited air units per city (not max 4, 8 with Airport)
• Caste System no +1 from Workshop, Slavery low upkeep (not medium), Emancipation no upkeep (not low), Environmentalism no +2 from Windmills but gets +1 from Jungle and Forest, State Property no +10%
• Expansive gives 50% worker bonus (not 25%) (see below for further change in vanilla)
• Railroads require Coal (Oil not an alternative), no Forest Preserve
• Simple Forts (can only be built within own culture borders, do not give access to resources, cannot house naval or air units)
• Factories no +2 from Coal and Oil
• Cavalry does not require Rifling, Trireme does not require Metal Casting, Grenadier requires Chemistry (not Military Science)
• Greek Phalanx replaces Spearman (not Axeman) and no free March promotion, Japanese Samurai no free Drill I
• Barrage available to Armored Units
• Great General generation needs less combat experience
• Workboat does not become ocean-going with Astronomy
• Workboat, Galley, Trireme and Ironclad can enter an ocean tile within foreign culture borders with Open Borders or when at war with the controlling civilization (cannot do so in BtS, except ocean-going Workboats)
• No Blockade, no Sea Patrol, no Pillage of naval trade routes
• Trade by river does not require Sailing, can trade obsolete resources
• No Espionage Points system, Spy requires Scotland Yard national wonder, demographics always visible
• No Corporations
• No Colonies (no specific Overseas Maintenance Cost), no City Liberation
• No Random Events
• No Advanced Flight, Aesthetics, Laser, Military science, Stealth, Superconductors, different tech requirements for: Fibre Optics, Robotics, Computers
• No Airship, Anti-tank Infantry, Attack Submarine, Cuirassier, Guided Missile, Missile Cruiser, Mobile Artillery, Mobile SAM, Paratrooper, Privateer, Ship of the Line, Tactical Nuke
• No Customs House, Industrial Park, Intelligence Agency, Levee, Public Transportation, Security Bureau
• No Apostolic Palace, Cristo Redentor, Mausoleum of Maussollos, Moai Statues, National Park, Scwedagon Paya, Statue of Zeus.
• Parthenon requires only Polytheism (not +Aesthetics), Sistine Chapel requires Theology (not Music) and no +5 per State building, Notre Dame requires Music (not Engineering), Hagia Sophia requires Engineering (not Theology)
• Less civs and leaders <Added in BtS>, Augustus Caesar is Creative and Organized (not Industrious and Imperialistic)

Vanilla (in addition to above):

• Building research/culture/wealth gets 50% (not 100%) of , and bonuses from Library/Bank etc apply, but not from Forge etc (opposite to WL and BtS) (so often better to build research rather than wealth in vanilla)
• No Great Wall, Temple of Artemis, University of Sankore
• No Trebuchet, Trireme
• Chariot does not get +100% against Axeman, Siege can receive collateral damage
• Civil Service does not require Mathematics (Oracle slingshot affected)
• Can preselect an item to build in captured cities for free turn of production when they emerge from resistance
• Production from chops happens immediately on completion, no opportunity to change build target that turn
• Production from chop is lost when building research/culture/wealth or when no production item is selected
• River deltas provide fresh water to less tiles
• Workboat, Galley and Ironclad cannot enter an Ocean tile within enemy culture borders when at war
• Capturing or razing enemy capital destroys completed spaceship components
• West Point needs a level 5 unit (not 6), Space Elevator requires only Robotics (not +Satellites)
• Expansive gives no worker bonus, but +3 (not +2)
• Bureaucracy medium upkeep (not high), Representation gives +2 (not +3),
• Barracks give 4 XP (not 3), cost 60 (not 50)
• No Stable, no additional trade route from Castle, no bombardment protection from Walls or Castle
• Basic Forts (no City Garrison or City Raider bonuses, remove Forests in same tile, can be used by enemy)
• Quarry does not get +1 with Railroad
• Aztec Jaguar gets +25% Jungle defence, but not Woodsman I
• Pinch does not require Gunpowder
• Can see units on foreign ships
• No Great Generals
• No Vassals
• No Unique Buildings
• Less civilizations and leaders <Added in WL> and many leaders have different traits <See Old Traits column here>

List originally compiled by psparky, following a suggestion by Deckhand. Far too many people to credit them all here, but if I used your input, then thanks!