1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Suggestions and Requests

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, Sep 11, 2014.

  1. Bernd-das-Brot

    Bernd-das-Brot Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2009
    Messages:
    326
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Germany
    Connected city is just a city that has a connection to another via roads or rivers/coast (with sailing) as in vanilla.

    In RoM-AND (Rise of Mankind - A new Dawn) this does not generate any commerce automatically. There are no trade routes, just a list of connected cities, foreign and domestic.
    But you can receive commerce with the right buildings.

    Example:
    A tavern generates +1 commerce per every three connected domestic cities (up to a limit of three commerce).

    A port adds 4+x commerce, depending on number of domestic cities and gets a further bonus for every seafood and some luxuries in its vicinity and so on.

    So you don't get commerce just for founding the city, which magically creates trade routes with an obscure system and obscure revenues, but you gain commerce fitting for the infrastructure and ressources of the city. Easy to see how the numbers are calculated.:)
     
  2. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    32,994
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Leblanc
    Okay, that makes sense. But aren't you generally connected to every city in the world?

    And the connection calculation is what is computationally expensive afaik.
     
  3. MechatronicJazz

    MechatronicJazz Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2007
    Messages:
    231
    There was a lot of discussion on this in the AND forum. Part of the problem with trade routes as they are is that the game tries to calculate the most profitable trade routes every turn. To pull another quote from Afforess:
    If I remember correctly, the city connections cut down on the number of nested loops. Now that certainly isn't the only way to do that. There was also a lot of discussion on how to take the existing mechanic and improve it.

    I think one of the other benefits of the city connections mechanic is that it provided a more stable income. Trade routes can fluctuate quite a bit from turn to turn since every possible city-city route can have a different value. Every turn the game checks for the best combination, given the limited number of trade routes/city. With city connections, the game just counts how many cites are connected. You won't get different yields from being connected to different cities. The only difference is domestic vs foreign. The actual yields are provided by buildings that give X gold/connected city up to a max.

    Also cities are only connected to all other cities in the late game. First you need to get roads up, and have sailing for coastal trade and then Astronomy for ocean trade. You also need to explore the map, since I'm pretty sure you can't be connected to city that's still unrevealed.

    I quite like the mechanic in AND, but I don't know if it would work in DoC. The two mods play very differently. One of the most relevant differences is that AND has much larger maps and much slower game speeds available and is in general a much slower game than DoC.
     
  4. HolyHandGrenade

    HolyHandGrenade Holy Pin

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2006
    Messages:
    607
    ... this is really a lot and bad style programming. It is faster to:

    Loop over each city (n)
    - Loop over all cities beginning at n+1
    - get the owner of the city and do what must be done
     
  5. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    5,580
    Location:
    The city of the original vlaai
    IIRC, if a trade route from city A to city B is the best, it doesn't necessarily mean that a trade route from B to A is too. So the n+1 loop should be a loop through all cities. (Except itself ofcourse)
     
  6. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    32,994
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Leblanc
    I still think there is a lot of computational optimisation possible here that Firaxis just didn't do because vanilla doesn't tend to push the boundaries in terms of map size etc.

    So this should be mainly discussed in terms of game design. I like the concept of starting cities without free trade commerce. What I'm not so sure about is that apparently income can scale with the number of connected cities in the game? That seems counterintuitive and could produce quite the large income late in the game.

    I would rather do something like EU4 with limited trade ranges that actually depend on the pathfinding algorithm and something that would have cities benefit from the trade passing through them. But every idea I had for that so far would turn out to be even more computationally expensive, so I haven't touched the system yet.
     
  7. Bernd-das-Brot

    Bernd-das-Brot Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2009
    Messages:
    326
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Germany
    Just a quick thought, but if the TR system/connection-check is so work intensive for the CPU and heavily slowing down the turn times, why not get rid of it all together?

    It is an extremly abstract concept in the game, that is rarely interacted with anyways. The only thing that comes to my mind is blockading searoutes (the only intersting player decision to TRs and it only really works on islands), building 2-3 buildings, or the "mercantilism or not mercantilism question". Nothing I would miss.

    If there would be a more direct system for representing trade, perhaps via buildings (ports, stations, warehouses, manufactories) or the corporation system (trading companies) this could be more interesting decisonwise and additionally speed up the game.

    Ressources, citysize and logistic possibilities (techs like astronomy or railroad) could be logical starting points for a new trade representation.
     
  8. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    32,994
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Leblanc
    That's not really the issue though, connections also have to be calculated for access to resources etc.
     
  9. AdrienIer

    AdrienIer Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2010
    Messages:
    3,283
    Location:
    Paris
    I like the new trade system where AIs tend to sell you their resources for quite a cost, but maybe that shouldn't apply to vassals (or maybe a lesser version of it) ? Spain just asked me for marble+92gpt for their coffee, but c'mon they're my vassals !
     
  10. ales_

    ales_ Heir

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2012
    Messages:
    5,639
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Toulouse, France
    You can demand this Coffee for free for yourself.
     
  11. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Knoedel Imperator Satani Filius Augustus Nooborum

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2011
    Messages:
    8,529
    Location:
    Land der Mörder, Land der Hetzer
    If ever a unique ideological victory is implemented, can we have victory videos for each? Like the fall of the Berlin wall for Liberalism, a Red Army Parade for Communism, and some scenes from Triumph des Willens (that famous Nazi propaganda movie) for Fascism.
     
  12. AdrienIer

    AdrienIer Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2010
    Messages:
    3,283
    Location:
    Paris
    Can't they refuse tribute sometimes ? Also I like to be kind to my vassals, so I usually don't go too hard on them.
     
  13. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Knoedel Imperator Satani Filius Augustus Nooborum

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2011
    Messages:
    8,529
    Location:
    Land der Mörder, Land der Hetzer
    Yep. I had a pretty hilarious instance of that recently, where after the Reconquista (I was Spain) the Moors offered to capitulate to me in addition to loads of money. Right afterwards, as in I didn't even leave the diplo screen, I demanded a bunch of resources from them, and they IMMEDIATELY broke free and declared war on me again. I can only imagine how that played out:

    "I will to my lord be true and faithful. I will love all which he loves, and shun all which he shuns."
    "Excellente, now then if you would kindly send us all your wheat, dye and stone we would be ever so gra-"
    "Enough is enough! We shall settle this on the battlefield! Sic semper tyrannis!"
     
  14. hunam

    hunam Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2014
    Messages:
    4
    After running through a few different scenarios the last months, I had a few ideas that crept up:

    * Starting religious dynamism (also know as what got me started digging though the python scripting): For most nations (with some exceptions such as the Arabs and Byzantines), the starting religion should depend on the religion of the neighbors; I found it kind of odd in one of my Rome games that Mali adopted Islam after I spent the better part of a millennium grinding Islam into the dirt. I'm looking into means of implementing this, but will hold off until v1.14 to see how the religious system gets modified.

    * Perhaps this is just a byproduct of the games I play, but it feels that technology tends to stagnate a bit in the 19th and 20th centuries, lagging behind where it should. Anyone tend to see that?

    * Playing late game, I get the distinct impression that cities are too small (too few people) and that the industrial revolution isn't really well modeled. For cities having too few people, that's merely a matter of tweaking farm output and buildings more for certain technologies. Industrialization, on the other hand, is a bit more complicated; industry tends to be better focused in areas with large population concentrations (e.g., US Northeast) but instead in Civ4 its a matter of having large hills, watermills, etc. leading to the somewhat hilarious result of having Bismark, ND as the center of US industry in many of my games. I'm thinking that certain techs should start yielding additional hammers for citizens and great engineers in the late game to encourage players to focus more on specialists to push production instead of improvements in the late game.

    * New civilization proposals are on hold until v.1.15, if memory serves. Is that right Leoreth?

    * For the ideologies, I'd think that Reactionary/Traditionalism/What-have-you should probably be added as an additional ideology; Communism, Fascism, and Democracy aren't the only modern ideologies available, really, just the three most popular. Sans WWI, Traditionalism could have held out longer.

    * The mention of the Kievian Rus last page reminds me to go back and do a review of a few civilizations:
    % I'm thinking that Turkey should be a conditional spawn depending on how effective the Seljuk's expansion into Anatolia has been (cross-referencing genetic studies of the origin of Turkey's population, I thought most Turks weren't of Central Asian extraction originally).
    % Might want to have Russia either be a conditional spawn of the Kievian Rus or have it spawn instead at Kiev and its core move like the Phoenicians to Muscovy upon the Mongol's sacking Kiev. Kiev was the center of East Slavic culture for several centuries and it was only after the Horde that Muscovy began to outshine Kiev.
    % I'm sure there's more civilizations I can argue that should be conditional spawns but I'll hold off see how these measure up.

    * EDIT: Almost forgot: The new world religious spread should be reevaluated eventually; I colonized Peru and the Aztec with China, and still saw Catholicism spread throughout the America's (as a Confucian China). Might want to look at that again for v1.14
     
  15. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    32,994
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Leblanc
    I agree that some civs starting religions can wind up nonsensical with the current setup. We already have dynamic starting religions to a certain extent for the Netherlands and America, but before extending it to more civs I would have to come up with a more generic mechanism for this. Religion in general is supposed to be addressed soon, but maybe this is better solved when I work on civ spawns later than that.

    Proposal and discussion is still welcome, of course, just don't expect implementation until the groundwork for more civs is completed. That will still take some time; I don't know which version it will turn out to be in the end because I intend to release in shorter intervals than before.

    Yeah, definitely.

    I consider scripted civ spawns that disregard context to a certain point to be an intentional corrective to the butterfly effect this game can exhibit. I think to a certain extent, people want to experience the game within the context of familiar history, so it is sometimes permissible to force those elements into the timeline despite circumstance. Still, I could see such an arrangement in case of Russia or the Ottomans.

    Yes, it's part of the religion changes that will come in 1.14.
     
  16. Bernd-das-Brot

    Bernd-das-Brot Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2009
    Messages:
    326
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Germany
    Prussian 2nd UHV:

    Add Poland as target of conquest.

    Eventually remove the tundra tiles in northern Russia as conquest targets.
     
  17. Shadow Warlord

    Shadow Warlord Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2014
    Messages:
    272
    If we're going down that route, Italy should be swapped with Greece for that goal. I'd add another, but soon enough the goal would be "control all Europe", which would be a pain given all the cores.
     
  18. Bernd-das-Brot

    Bernd-das-Brot Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2009
    Messages:
    326
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Germany
    That Poland is missing seems very strange from a historic and geographic point of view and looks more like an "oversight" after the implementation of Poland as a civ.

    The UHV is doable even on Paragon including Poland. (Played exactly this game in the last week.:))

    But if it should not be too hard I would remove Italy as target (wasn't really conquered by the Third Reich) or trade Russia with just Moskva, Rostov (or another Black Sea city) and St. Petersburg.

    Greece (only Athens) is nearly always part of the Osman Empire, so this would make the UHV a lot harder in most games.
     
  19. Bernd-das-Brot

    Bernd-das-Brot Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2009
    Messages:
    326
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Germany
    Would an UHV like conquer Italy or have a Defence Pact (the nearest thing in game to an Alliance) with it be possible?
     
  20. Force44

    Force44 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2015
    Messages:
    503
    Location:
    The Low Countries
    First of all thank you, especially Leoreth and Tigranes, for your warm welcome and your
    Spoiler :
    constructive criticism.

    It feels nice to feel noticed.

    summary requests/ideas:

    Change uhvs connected to a specific city to the capitol (eg Babylon most populous city or x culture in Paris).
    Nerf xp-farming with catapults.
    Change the location of a resource when a city is built on top of it.
    Conditional startingunits (an additional unit for every settler you spawn with because the starts without foreign cities flipping to you feel underpowered in comparison)

    For a bit of elaboration check the spoiler below.
    Spoiler :


    Rome to France game. (speed: marathon, difficulty: paragon, 4000bc start)

    I got lucky with Rhegium Julii prebuilt by the Greeks. So when it flipped to me I had sufficient armies to take out Carthage, Greece, Egypt,Persia, Babylon, and Phoenicia (in that order)

    With the additional starting settler (I got only two startingsettlers in stead of three because the aforementionted city flipped to me. The mechanic works! Well done :goodjob: The tradeoff of some additional units (and the opportunity for early conquest (even without diplomacy repercussions) if you are lukcy) and an suboptimal city for an optimal cityplacement is usually worth it. So much in fact that the start without a flip feels a bit underpowered in comparisom, maybe tie another archer to every starting settler?)
    I founded the city of Lapurdum (on the wine south of Burdigala) (future Bayonne) and had it built
    a monument (more wood from chopping insde cultureborders and convert early food into production via rush one turn before it is finished) and a forge to speed up future wonders.

    I razed Carthage and Sparta, I kept Athens (the great lighthouse was built there and it provided a center for production of an additional settler for the city of Aemona Iulia (the additional health is nice but I build it primarily for the larger expansion stability tolerance) and additional defence (legions) against celts and future barbarians and catapults) I conquered egypt just to late to prevent them from rushing Ishtar gate with another great engeneer. (or did they just build it? I forgot, anyway) The city of Diospolis Magna (former Thebes) had the Pyramids, the Hanging gardens, the Temple of Artemis and Ishtar gate built by the time I conquered it.

    Avaris (the city on the mediterreanean coast on the riverisland on the spot to the right of and next to the wheat in egypt) had taoism as a religion which was nice because it gave acces to confucian/taoist wonders and (even more important) another cathedral for paris down the line.
    I gifted it to India for now though, to keep my number of cities down to reduce upkeep and expansion penalties down.

    Upon conquest I gave the persian cities to India so I did not have to bother defending them. And also not suffer more negative expansion stability from razing. After I conquered their (the Persian) core they collapsed. The Babylonians and Phoenicians (former Carthaginians) suffered a likewise fate. India now had control over the great Sphynx in Babylon (a great wonder to help civs who need lot of culture asap (eg Greece to Japan) I wondered if I should eventually use it to give Paris a head start in culture with the help of some great prophets.) The Kashi viswanath (hindu shrine) in Patalliputra (their capitol) and the Temple of Salomo in Indraprastha so they got to Zoroastrianism before Persia spawned. That was a nice surprise.
    (They also had the holy city for Buddhism in Nagpur which counts almost as half a wonder because no one else can build it.) This gifting of cities is to a rival civ is still a form of covered warfare in this incarnation of rhyes and fall of civilization because the increased expansion stability penalty and increased domestic stability penalty from additional religions will make them eventually collaps.

    The independents had the oracle built in Kalhu (former babylonian city on the copper I never bothered to conquer because it lies outside a core) on which i perfermed an eternal siege to farm xp on my catapults. By the time I gifted them to france I had 10 catapults bombarding Kalhu every turn, seven of which had great generals attached to them and two of them were already maxed out on upgrades. I guess a small nerf (similar to the spynerf) is in order. I propose increasing the siegeunits' withdrawelchances with one percent (always) and give them no xp upon a combat chance of 100% victory. A bigger xp-reward upon an unlikely withdrawel would also be nice (or is that already implemented? I rarely start fights I am unlikely to win because of the penalty in combat stability defeats bring along)

    I razed the Tamil cities because they were to small to gift to India asap (by the way, gif is dutch for poison, which results in the english verb of gifting haveing the connotation of poisoning for someone dutch, like myself, which in this case is rather proper :evil:) And ehtiopia was too far away to gift to India, so I had to have them stick around (in hindsight I should have planned a war with Ethiopia before a war with the tamils)

    I was lucky that China collapsed all by itself. India did succumb to to forces of internal pressure and desintegrated :satan:

    I ignored Korea, the Vikings and Japan. By then I had my hands full with barbs (that is a literal translation of a dutch proverb meaning being very busy with) anyway.

    I captured Lutetia Parisorum and built the cities of Augusta Trevorum (Treves. two to the right of Paris) and Nemausus (Nimes, spot of Marseille) rather late so I could get to the techs to build most of the classical wonders sooner (I never got to construction because I preferred feudalism for the huge boost in stability entering the mideaval era and adopting vassalage gives) I got Shwedagon Paya and The Muasoleum of Mausollos built in time before the French flip (chopping the spanish and german forests helped a lot, but I kept the forests in france intact for better health), but not the improved stables I got in a completed quest in all of the cities. (I did not even had Gesoscribate/Brest (the city that used to get crab from the english coast) built by then)

    I opted to raze Avaris, as I would not flip to arabia, so I could keep my acces to the gold i needed so badly to finish shwedagon Paya in time by refusing the flip and sitting the siege out in a heavily fortified Diospolis Megale (egyptian city). So no taoism in Paris :sad:

    I built landlocked Valencia so the Spanish would be rather weak and easier to vassalize and a vassal which cities' first ring did not overlap with my future French cities and right before the flip I shifted my capitol to Athens so I could gift my Italian cities to France (after which they opened borders so I could provide them with veteran nay, spartan catapults so that they could conquer all of europe. All of europe? All of europe! (and turn them into vassals, kudos for who gets the reference to the comic))

    As France I conquered every european civ (including the moors) as soon as possible and let them reasearch printing press. The winner was (first to discover printing press) scandinavia :viking::trophy: after which I set their research on astronomy so that they could colonize north america for me. In hindsight a stronger spain might have been more usefull because it took them a veeery long time to get to astronomy. In the mean time I researched the techs for the wonders for the uhv (both the necessary wonders and the wonders that helped a lot, like himeji castle and the sistine chapel) and the cathedrals. I built the opera house in Paris but ended up not needing it because paris had achieved legendary culture (about twice as much as needed) by the time it had to have a certain amount of culture for the uhv.

    By now (1789 AD) I am well on track to research steel (another six turns and I already have electricity) and I have a great engeneer waiting to rushbuild the eiffel tower. But I probably have to reload a previous save to colonize america myself... ...and a bit sooner because conquering america (they won't become my vassals because like the Netherlands before them (I even built a city north of amsterdam so they would be less in the way of my core cities, ungratefull bunch, them dutch(<- pun intended:devil:)) as they deem me too mighty) won't net me 40% of North America in time.

    That my english and spanish vassals collapsed (as did my holy roman, viking and polish vassals) also did not help (they were my vassals with most holings in north america (besides portugal by now))
    England respawned but I can probably ignore it like prussia because my remaining vassals still controll enough of Europe.

    I would have liked my game as the French even better (eventually becoming first in tech is pretty good fun :)) if:

    I had acquired more religions for even mooore wonders and cathedrals.
    An improvement I can implement in future games myself by making better decisions or acquiesce in more modest achievements;)

    The wine under Bayonne would have been improvable.
    I could do it manually with the world editor, but I imagine a rather easy pythonscript could do it for me without me feeling like a cheat. (eg check spot the city is being built on has a resource if so then check random other landsquare in bfc if it has a resource, if yes then check if other landsquare in bfc has resource, if no then delete the resource from the original square and place it on the last checked square. If no landsquares are available to relocate the resource stop searching and leave the resource in place and then build the city)

    Paris is a rather crappy city compared to most of the other cities that could be built in adjacent squares. It would be more fun to not be forced to build paris for the uhv. A spot that would facilitate the uhv (eg a unique resource only visable and usuable by france that when improved by building a city on top of it gives an additional 10 culture per turn, named Ille de France) to incite the player to build paris on the historical spot would be awesome.

    Also I would like to point out that two of the uhvs for France are conditions on a certain date. And that conditions on a certain date are conditions before the next date and after the previous date. Making them condititions to be achieved before a certain date with an extra clause. That extra clause could be extended to a date a bit more before the certain date to create a between condition for uhvs.
     

Share This Page