Suggestions and Requests
- Thread starter Leoreth
- Start date
My point was that I'm not actually sure why the English are in need of the Redcoat in order to establish their empire. Most of the English colonies are either obtained by settling emptz territory (North America, Africa, Australia, Caribean) or by conquest (India, Egypt). When settling empty territory, there is not really a beed for stronger Riflemen. The probabilty of another European power conquering English colonies is rather slim. Now concider the case of India and other areas that need to be conquered. By the time the English try to conquer these areas, the civilizations occupying them are probably an entire unit tier behind the English. It's not that hard to defeat Musketmen with Riflemen. On top of that, the main area to be conquered, India, is affected by the English traiding company event. Should the Redcoat be removed, one could simply increase the stacksize of the conquerors to compensate. Redcoats are great when fighting other Riflemen, but England is not really supposed to gain it's colonies by conquering them from other powers with comparable technology progress. Such a UU migth therefore make more sense for the Dutch, who are supposed to conquer their colonies from other european powers. (I'm NOT suggesting to change the dutch UU, I just want to point out that the Dutch would have a greater need for a Redcoat-like UU) When founding cities on otger continents, a naval UU migth be really useful. Once founded, cities are not that vulnerable and give Riflemen enough of an edge to easily defeat attacking Riflemen. But when transported by Galleons over the ocean, the Galleons and therefore the Settlers are vulnerable to naval attacks. Additionally, in a one to one confrotation, an attacking Frigate or Ship of the Line has a 50% chance to wi against a defending Frigate or Ship of the Line. Therefore, a Galleon escorted by a Ship if the Line can be defeated by a Frigate and a Ship of the Line in nearly 50% of the cases. A stronger English Ship of the Line would greatly improve the odds in the favor of the English, therefore increasing the chance of a Settler reching its destination. In conclusion, I believe a naval UU migth be more beneficial to England, both human and AI-controlled, in order to establishing a colonial empire
Unless & until the AI can fight naval wars, greater naval power is useless. England is set up to build Trafalgar (sinking 50 ships goal) & have a good chance at well-promoted naval units making better odds on other civs. Redcoats are exceedingly helpful in conquering India & well represent the superiority of the Beggars in Red & their Brown Besses fighting Napoleon.
The Portuguese & the Dutch have a naval UU with the only sensible quality that would make a good choice: a larger land unit carrying capacity.
The Portuguese & the Dutch have a naval UU with the only sensible quality that would make a good choice: a larger land unit carrying capacity.
Byzantium was introduced in BTS and there are two BTS civs (Netherlands and Portugal) which have naval UUs.
need my speed
Rex Omnium Imperarium
Byzantine's Dromon obviously refers to Civilization III. Civilization IV's development team used that as one of their arguments for not including unique naval units. They would later go back on that, adding for example the Portuguese Carrack, of course.
Force44
King
@ Bautos42
I really like your reasoning.
When putting the arguments side by side I come to the following conclusion.
The argument seems to be (imo) that one side (Bautos42) prefers a small bonus on both land and sea for England to achieve a colonial empire (tech advantage on land and UU advantage on sea) and the other side (Leoreth) prefers a bigger bonus on land and no advantage on sea (both tech and UU advantage on land)
Superiority on both land and sea is required to achieve a colonial empire.
(quote: (Bautos42) "...settlers are vulnerable to navy attacks.")
In the case of receiving only a bonus on land, this forces (but also enables) you to build a larger navy.
A large navy is the very thing the Brittish empire was known for.
(further elaboration under spoiler)
Spoiler :
to spend elsewhere.(eg a second UU like the Proposed Manowar, or, less exotic, an increase in strength/movement/carrying capacity of 1 or a random promotion)
ales_
Heir
As DarkLunaPhantom has noted, it wasn't later.
need my speed
Rex Omnium Imperarium
No.
Civilization III had civilisations such as Byzantium. This civilisation had a Dromon, an arguably overpowered Galley, as its unique unit.
Then Civilisation IV started being developed. The development team of Civilisation IV decided to not include any unique naval units; no Byzantine Dromon, no English Man-O-War. The development team felt that unique naval units were either overpowered or underpowered, both of which are bad. And so, it is entirely plausible to posit that, without that constraint - no unique naval units, because they'd be unbalanced - the English would have had the Man-O-War again as their unique unit, in Civilization IV. The rationale wasn't so much 'Redcoats fit better, as they have a recognisable aesthetic', but more 'we don't want unique naval units, so England needs something else... How about a Redcoat?'.
Then, expansions were developed for Civilisation IV, including, for example, the Netherlands and Portugal, and as you can see, the developers went back on their decision to not include unique naval units; in the expansion package, the Netherlands would have the East Indiaman and Portugal would have the Carrack.
Force44
King
Need my speed may not have stated his point in the clearest possible way but I do believe his point is pretty clear by now...
Civ 3 -> (thinking developers) -> no more naval UU's -> Civ 4 (pre expansions and mods) -> (thinking developers (again !)) -> naval UU's are allowed again -> Civ 4 BTS
Civ 3 -> (thinking developers) -> no more naval UU's -> Civ 4 (pre expansions and mods) -> (thinking developers (again !)) -> naval UU's are allowed again -> Civ 4 BTS
Just to be clear, I don't really have a side in this discussion, I was only pointing out a potential impact of replacing the English UU.
I mean, those things aren't mutually exclusive.
It should be noted that vanilla Civ4 and BtS had different developers. Iirc Jon Shafer already ran things for that expansion.
need my speed
Rex Omnium Imperarium
True, and true. It's irrelevant anyway - I was just adding context to what you said.
Vit20141012
Chieftain
New suggestion.
The Babylonias is often builds the Great Sphinx or the Pyramids, and the Hanging Gardens is not.
Maybe add a requirements:
1) the Great Sphinx requirement: Dynasticism
2) the Pyramids requirement: the Great Sphinx
What do you think?
The Babylonias is often builds the Great Sphinx or the Pyramids, and the Hanging Gardens is not.
Maybe add a requirements:
1) the Great Sphinx requirement: Dynasticism
2) the Pyramids requirement: the Great Sphinx
What do you think?
Force44
King
@ Leoreth & need my speed
Interesting trivia, I never payed much attention to the different compositions of the development teams so I didn't know that.
@ Vit20141012
I think that is an excellent idea to prevent unwanted Babylonian Sphinxes and Pyramids in DoC.
The lack of opportunity to build the "wrong stuff" might also increase the prevalence of the Hanging gardens in Babylon.
Personally I like to see Pyramids and Sphinxes in Babylon from time to time. So I myself would prefer a solution that encourages building the Hanging Gardens in Babylon without discouraging or preventing the building of the Pyramids or the Sphinx. (Got to keep those Egyptians on their toes
)
Interesting trivia, I never payed much attention to the different compositions of the development teams so I didn't know that.
@ Vit20141012
I think that is an excellent idea to prevent unwanted Babylonian Sphinxes and Pyramids in DoC.
The lack of opportunity to build the "wrong stuff" might also increase the prevalence of the Hanging gardens in Babylon.
Personally I like to see Pyramids and Sphinxes in Babylon from time to time. So I myself would prefer a solution that encourages building the Hanging Gardens in Babylon without discouraging or preventing the building of the Pyramids or the Sphinx. (Got to keep those Egyptians on their toes
)
ales_
Heir
Yes, but Byzantium appeared in the same expansion with Netherlands and Portugal.
Imperator Knoedel
Currently obsessed with The Owl House
I disagree. In my modmod I managed to achieve this without any hard restrictions, just by adjusting some modifiers. I don't want it to be impossible for the Pyramids to be built in Babylon, just unlikely.
Vit20141012
Chieftain
Leoreth, can you do to for autoplay turns at the start of the game AI built the Great Wonders correctly or not build them?
For example: I start a new game for the Byzantines AD325, but AI builds the Great Wonders hit or miss. If I start a new game for the Byzantines AD600, then the Great Wonders are in place.
Maybe add a option or constant (default - disabled)?
For example: I start a new game for the Byzantines AD325, but AI builds the Great Wonders hit or miss. If I start a new game for the Byzantines AD600, then the Great Wonders are in place.
Maybe add a option or constant (default - disabled)?
Vit20141012
Chieftain
Maybe for the AI-players to make additional requirements for the construction of the Great Wonders?
Force44
King
Or code that (1) prevents wonders from being built at all (untill the player spawns).
(2) upon player spawn wonders are assigned to eligible cities (for "correct great wonders" with a bonus to culture to compensate for the loss of age for the wonders)
(3) the ban on building wonders gets lifted.
I don't know if I would like the results (I personally prefer the game to not follow history exactly) but the autoplay (setup of the game) yet might still be a part of the mod left largely unscrutinized.
(2) upon player spawn wonders are assigned to eligible cities (for "correct great wonders" with a bonus to culture to compensate for the loss of age for the wonders)
(3) the ban on building wonders gets lifted.
I don't know if I would like the results (I personally prefer the game to not follow history exactly) but the autoplay (setup of the game) yet might still be a part of the mod left largely unscrutinized.
merijn_v1
Black Belt
It is already forbidden for the AI to build wonders that are required for the human UHV until the civ spawns. (It was included in vanilla RFC already) But it is possible that the newly added wonders are not on the list.
(A quick check shows that the Empire State Building isn't forbidden to build before human American spawn, while the other wonders are)
Complete list of missing wonders
(Of this list, I only think the American, Mughal and Brazilian Wonders are really necessary bo be on the list. All other wonders are very unlikely to be build by the AI before the spawn anyway)
(A quick check shows that the Empire State Building isn't forbidden to build before human American spawn, while the other wonders are)
Complete list of missing wonders
(Of this list, I only think the American, Mughal and Brazilian Wonders are really necessary bo be on the list. All other wonders are very unlikely to be build by the AI before the spawn anyway)
Spoiler :
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