Suggestions and Requests

[Ogi123]

Base free units are set to 5 + 15% population right? I would propose 15 - 20 base + 10% population, granted here you just need to find proper mix of both.

 

[1SDANi]

Also not really available through existing XML.

So is the not available through existing XML refencing both or only the GPP?

If both, perhaps something like

+5% Growth per specialist
Whereas Republic's goal is to increase effective max pop, this would serve to get you to max pop faster. While it's bonus does serve to increase itself, it's still limited by the city's happiness, food, and health.

+1 Culture per specialist
This works really nice with the recentish specialist culture level bonuses, but I feel that isn't the main draw. The initial culture levels are easy to get, but 1 culture added to each specialist is more of a long term plan to maximize output. No, the main draw is in expansion, specifically that it allows you to get new cities up to speed faster, which matches the goal set by the increased building speeds. By assinging your pop to citizen specialization for a couple of turns, you can expand the city's borders and keep your workers active.

+1 Commerce per excess happiness +25% City Upkeep
May be too powerful, but I thought of the idea and thought it was too cool to not put down. Obviously growing to an additional citizen is nearly always preferable to 1 Commerce so I doubt it'll become a tactic to stop growing, instead the goal is to ensure your nation has a lot of happiness, and profit off of that. I included the additional upkeep so it won't be the go-to for all colonial civs, though I'm not sure if the upkeep is too much or too little. Again, just a cool idea I thought of.

 

[Leoreth]

Growth or GPP per specialist are impossible, and so are specialist specific effects. I could code something like that but at this point I don't really want to.

 

[1SDANi]

Growth or GPP per specialist are impossible, and so are specialist specific effects. I could code something like that but at this point I don't really want to.

Really. even growth? That's annoying.

 

[Leoreth]

A good guideline is whether you have already seen a modifier for any civic in this mod. I am currently using nearly all of them.

 

[GoodHunter]

Is it possible to change happy/unhappy mechanics in city growth process?
Its very annoying when your cities population exceeds happiness limit, you punished by removing one working citizen.
So you must always manually control happiness in every city.
Could we replace unhappiness penalty by growth(food) penalty? So, when city exceed happiness limit, its just stop growing.

And many thanks for this great work on this mod!

 

[Leoreth]

I think the game gives you sufficient tools to control that yourself. There is a notification when a city will become unhappy because it grows on next turn, and you have the avoid growth button to prevent the city from growing in that case.

 

[Ogi123]

So about those civics I would propose:
1)Republic: +1 per specialist, hurry units with gold, high upkeep - specialist will be constrained with / and of course necessity of building infrastructure in cities to get slots.
2)Elective: no distance maintenance, +2 from camp and pasture, low upkeep - this civic needs something more than currently to compete with really strong alternatives.
3)Citizenship: Double speed for six buildings, +2 from specialist, high upkeep - most natural fit with republic but combination of 2x high upkeep will make this problematic for large empires, as it should be.
4)Vassalage: units produced with , free units 15 + 10% population, +1 from castle, fort bonus, low upkeep - you know History rewritten vassalage looks better and better longer I think about it.

I'm strong opponent of going FFH2 route and assigning lot of small effects to civics. Each civic should have two to three clearly defined strong effects.

 

[Leoreth]

I like specialist happiness for Republic in theory, however in practice the civic shares a category with Monarchy that already provides happiness. Might be my playing style but unit happiness seems the preferable source to specialists, and even if its the other way around the choice seems rather pointless.

For Citizenship, I'm currently thinking to move the "hurry units with gold" there as a secondary effect.

 

[1SDANi]

I like specialist happiness for Republic in theory

Then why not have it be +1 Happiness per specialist, +1 Free Specialist per city. It's essentially +1 Free Happiness per city as long as you can get a specialist building up and runnning, unless citizens count as specialist... I'm Always forgetting about them!

 

[Leoreth]

They do ... but your suggestion doesn't really change the problem. If Republic has a free specialist and happiness and Monarchy has happiness then I'm going to choose Republic.

 

[1SDANi]

They do ... but your suggestion doesn't really change the problem. If Republic has a free specialist and happiness and Monarchy has happiness then I'm going to choose Republic.

Good point. So we need an effect that rewards use of specialists, does not aid nations with access to large stretches of land, and does not conflict with Monarchy.

What about +2 Happiness per specialist -1 Happiness per worked tile. That way it mainly rewards SE nations and not PE or CE

If that's still OP, we can do 3/2 instead.

 

[Leoreth]

Good idea, but what if ... food instead of happiness

 

[1SDANi]

Good idea, but what if ... food instead of happiness

Fine by me, you're the dev.

 

[Jarlaxe Baenre]

Could you do the +1 of main yield suggestion using fake buildings, like History Rewritten does with traits?

 

[Leoreth]

I can also properly code it, that is not the issue.

 

[Ogi123]

Quick question about villages, towns and workshops. Do you intend to leave it as it is? Because frankly currently I never run CE or build workshops, penalties for those improvements are to severe. This also has knock of effect on buildings, recycling plant is expensive late and only affect workshops so it's never get build in any city. Basically I think that with idea of from improvements is bad, it encourages specific types of non penalized improvements.

 

[NerfCothons]

I like the idea of giving different building production modifiers to several civics in Legitimacy. This effect for Citizenship was initially motivated by the idea of how Roman citizens in various cities sponsored public works, so its buildings should reflect what is thematically appropriate there. So maybe:
- Citizenship: Aqueduct, Library, Market
- Vassalage: Jail, Forge, Castle
- Meritocracy: Pharmacy, Post Office, Civic Square (?)

I don't know if Centralism should be a part in this. What I would like is faster production of National Wonders here, it seems thematically fitting.


True. I wonder what the break even point for +1 trade route vs. +50% commerce in capital is. Or even, when +50% trade route commerce (Free Enterprise) outweighs it.

I mean, the AI is probably not perfect in evaluating these differences, although recently I tried to make its trade route value calculations a bit more accurate.


Yeah. That's the main problem of the civic: Government is deliberately the category where I dumped most strong effects, so you are forced to choose between whipping, a lot of happiness (in particular, you cannot combine whipping with lots of happiness), lots of specialists/food, a significant maintenance cost reduction, or free specialists. Elective being a filler civic came late to this set of civics, and I didn't really have a strong bonus for it in mind.

Maybe we should try to identify another strong bonus that is worth competing with these instead. The best thing I could think of is +2 unit experience here.


(see above)

The more I think about it, especially in light of 1SDAN's post above, the more I think that the largest city happiness bonus should not be available so early, and probably not in Legitimacy. Alternative fitting locations I could imagine are Democracy (that one specialist seems weakest in the list I made above) or Nationhood. In either case, it probably makes sense to reduce the number of eligible cities for this bonus a bit, to maybe four, which is a common upper limit of core cities for most civs. The current number still stems from BtS games on maps this size, where there are fewer civs that generally have more cities by default.

However, if this effect is moved Citizenship seems a bit bare with only a building production modifier. I could imagine adding a slight economic bonus like +1 gold per specialist instead.

So basically the proposal is:

Citizenship (Law)
- medium upkeep
- +1 gold per specialist
- double production for Library, Market, Aqueduct


I'm not married to the Fort bonuses, they can go if we want, and the AI is a good point here. Same with Castle happiness, it's mostly flavour. So let's keep things simple for now:

Vassalage (Nobility)
- low upkeep
- additional free units without upkeep
- units are produced using food
- double production for Jail, Forge, Castle


I didn't just remove +1 food for Watermill because I wanted to use Paddy Fields to focus the effect more on China. As I said in my previous post, it's important to not only make the civic good for the civ you want it to run, but also not too good for civs you do not want it to run. China has good watermill land, but so has e.g. all of Europe, and it has been demonstrated that you can create a powerful economy using all grassland Meritocracy watermills there. Which is undesirable both from a civic and an improvement point of view. It's become clear to me by now that food bonuses can only be given to improvements that cannot be freely built everywhere, but instead require a resource etc. I would like to keep the East Asia focused Paddy Field bonus though. So basically:

Meritocracy (Education):
- medium upkeep
- +2 food from Paddy Field
- +1 commerce from Windmill, Watermill (if too strong, maybe even only watermill)
- +50% experience within borders

Contrary to the above I don't even think building construction modifiers are needed here.


In addition to the current gold modifier? I think Centralism is already strong enough. Although the question where the capital research goes is justified, if anywhere.


I do not want Territory civics to become too strong economically, and I want their effects focused on the center in most cases. Maybe Tributaries should just be reduced to +1 commerce? It already has the advantage of low upkeep.

If I introduce colony maintenance in the future (like I described in my previous post) it would certainly make sense to have Colonialism reduce it though.

I look forward to trying out the suggested tweaks to citizenship, vassalage, and meritocracy. I agree meritocracy doesn't need building speed buffs. Your point on food from improvements not limited by space makes sense. A problem with the paddy fields is that the rice is so concentrated in southern china that it doesn't feel like a systemic empire wide buff. Maybe we could spread rice around Han China a bit. Maybe +1 food for pasture as well? I don't really know.

On elective, an xp bonus to new units does fit the theme you seem to be seeking, seems appropriately connected to the civic (military minds are likely to make up a significant portion of an elective, which would lead to a better organized, trained, and led military) and is appropriately powerful, but feels redundant with other civics. As an additional option, I would also suggest faster build to stables and maybe even to cavalry units (if possible) as each one of the nations you identified were renowned for their cavalry and it creates a natural historical limit on the civic. If you add an xp bonus I wonder if conquest in the territory tree would need to be reworked then as that puts up to 6 xp per unit build on the civic map. Conquest might be able to use double speed barracks. Maybe it would be better to have conquest have a melee unit xp bonus and elective have a more powerful cavalry unit xp bonus. I'll go ahead and suggest +4 cav xp and faster stables for elective with +2 melee xp and faster barracks for conquest.

On Tributaries - I think I played a really unusual game in which I had numerous sprawling vassals. Most of the time vassals are only a few cities and as such the +2 feels right to me. Tributaries is inherently and appropriately economic (although minimally because of the tree it's in). After all it offers no other form of bonus.

 

[hnrysml]

Maybe after discovering some industrial political tech, farms could start causing unhappiness to start representing various forms of serfdom and such ending, and increasing urban populations, and a decreasing percentage of labour being agricultural.
This feature would also work well to simulate history, as civs that were relatively industrialised early, ie, running a cottage economy, would benefit in the early industrial era as other civs are struggling to cope with unhappiness/make the change to this style of economy (or otherwise run a penalised civic).

 

[Fresol]

Cavalry could use some strength boost, it's wrong to get less strength by upgrading a dragoon.