Suggestions and Requests

[Leoreth]

Do you expect junior high school teachers to hold a ten hour lecture on Indian decolonisation when it probably wasn't even the topic of the class?

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Do you expect junior high school teachers to hold a ten hour lecture on Indian decolonisation when it probably wasn't even the topic of the class?

"So, like, these Indians were, like, 'dude bro, like, we helped you rek Germany, and, like, dude, like bro, now all these Europeans have their freedom and we don't, that's, like, uncool bro', so then the Brits were like 'Yeah sure whatevs brah, I never liked you anyways'."

^This is what I expect a junior high school teacher to sound like. Then again I haven't been to a school in years.

 

[Leoreth]

British high school teacher: "Yeah so the Indians helped us a little bit when we were defending the free world against the Nazis, so when they asked nicely we decided to grant them independence as a reward. Unfortunately without the enlightened guidance of the empire Muslims and Hindus started killing each other :/"

 

[1SDANi]

"So, like, these Indians were, like, 'dude bro, like, we helped you rek Germany, and, like, dude, like bro, now all these Europeans have their freedom and we don't, that's, like, uncool bro', so then the Brits were like 'Yeah sure whatevs brah, I never liked you anyways'."

^This is what I expect a junior high school teacher to sound like. Then again I haven't been to a school in years.

If I were going to use your sarcastic depiction strategy I'd say
Actually it was more like

"Sir, may I enter this building" (I forget what kind of complex they were trying to enter)
"Back away, I'm a police officer and I'm allowed to use force if necessary"
"I will not back away, I am protesting"
*Officer hits protester with baton*
*Protester walks to back of line*
*Next protester in line walks up*
"Sir, may I enter this building"

And so on. Footage of this event spread world wide and people were outraged by the senseless violence.

That's what I remember of what they told us. To be fair we were learning about the major movements in civil rights (MLK, Ghandi, Mandela), so it makes sense that they wouldn't go into detail about the economic tribulations that faced Britain, they may have said a thing or two, but since "what was the main cause of Indian Decolonization" wouldn't be on the test they didn't go into detail and I probably just forgot about it.

 

[calad]

In my experience they were either nuisances or excessive punishments that didn't fulfill a clear purpose. The goal of the stability system is to confine the player to a broadly historical gameplay, and to remove AIs from the map that aren't appropriate for the time period. Additional crises really don't help with this goal. Ruining your stability so that you have to face collapse and elimination should be the main worry of the player, with crises you constantly had to worry about even going to shaky because that could mean losing a city etc. Now you can freely go up and down and stability levels are there to give you a buffer in case something bad happens.

Some of the ideas behind these crisis effects are nice, and I might bring them back in another way later. For example, it would work much better if there was a series of actual events that could occur if you are unstable and lower and have a negative score in an associated section. Then you would have the player choose between various options with different consequences (or even the opportunity to avoid bad effects if you happen to have the right solution on hand). In general that would be less arbitrary and frustrating.

Naturally rebelling units and so on would be annoying, so this would be undesired. However economic depression, or great depression could and should destroy improvements but as well reset economy stability. Losing vassals because of bad stability could be another reasonable outcome.

 

[1SDANi]

Naturally rebelling units and so on would be annoying, so this would be undesired. However economic depression, or great depression could and should destroy improvements but as well reset economy stability. Losing vassals because of bad stability could be another reasonable outcome.

I still think Units should not change sides in general. I'm always annoyed when I'm fighting a rising civ and my units switch. If anything I'd rather civs get extra starting units proportional to the size of the armies of nearby civs.

I propose extra starting units proportional to nearby civs instead of the civs that are at war with them because whenever I play America, if England does not declare war on me I won't have enough units for my early game war rush. Once I was at war with France, Prussia, England, and Spain all within the first 3 turns. I love Defensive Pacts.

 

[1SDANi]

If I were going to use your sarcastic depiction strategy I'd say
Actually it was more like

"Sir, may I enter this building" (I forget what kind of complex they were trying to enter)
"Back away, I'm a police officer and I'm allowed to use force if necessary"
"I will not back away, I am protesting"
*Officer hits protester with baton*
*Protester walks to back of line*
*Next protester in line walks up*
"Sir, may I enter this building"

And so on. Footage of this event spread world wide and people were outraged by the senseless violence.

That's what I remember of what they told us. To be fair we were learning about the major movements in civil rights (MLK, Ghandi, Mandela), so it makes sense that they wouldn't go into detail about the economic tribulations that faced Britain, they may have said a thing or two, but since "what was the main cause of Indian Decolonization" wouldn't be on the test they didn't go into detail and I probably just forgot about it.

Knoedel liked my post? I know I shouldn't look at the mouth of a horse's gift but, why?

 

[Tigranes]

Knoedel liked my post? I know I shouldn't look at the mouth of a horse's gift but, why?

Some people click "like" as a way to tell you they've read and acknowledged your opinion.

 

[1SDANi]

Some people click "like" as a way to tell you they've read and acknowledged your opinion.

Ah, that makes sense. I was starting to think I made Knoedel change their mind! XD

 

[Finbros]

Probably, real question not "How it was IRL" (there was not only India and not only Britain - bush wars in Portugal's South Africa, very violent conflict in Britain Kenya, French struggle for its colonial empire), but "How should it be represented" or even "Should it be represented"?

And don't remember, current gameplay for some civilization will be impossible in XX century without colonialism. Game as Portugal/Netherlands will be painful with loss of the colonies, I think, and other civs will suffer too (Britain, France, Prussia).
So, straightforward decision "It's 1950 and Mass Media discovered, let us take away all your colonies, and half of your gold/beakers/happiness/health with them" is bad, and just plain frustration: there are already complains about Canada spawn, and with this decolonization there will be much more of them.

Probably, decolonization mechanic should not punish player for having colonies, but encourage for releasing them after some moment.

 

[catacau]

I still think Units should not change sides in general. I'm always annoyed when I'm fighting a rising civ and my units switch

I also dislike the idea of flipping units but i rather have a system where the rising Civ would gain all units built by the flipping cities. For instance: playing as Japan and using Korea to build units while the Japanese core cities are building research and economic, if Korea respawn all units built in Korea flipzone should flip to Korea.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Maybe I also just found it funny?

 

[Leoreth]

Modern nations still exert influence in their former colonial territories, and other nations have also expanded their influence into decolonised countries (USA, USSR, more recently PRC). I think the greatest impediment to satisfying decolonisation is not the loss of territory itself but the fact that you cannot interact with what is left.

 

[1SDANi]

Maybe I also just found it funny?

To be fair I've been conditioned by jerk friends that I've since left to believe I'm not funny.

EDIT: Perhaps this is a good time to mention my idea that trade should happen naturally based on Trade Civics and city economies in addition to Diplomacy, preferably by adding food, production, culture, etc to the tradable items, and ensuring cities won't trade away their last of a product. Also, Resource tiles really should give multiples of each resource and each resource have a limit to how wide it can be spread.

 

[Finbros]

Probably some bonus for your culture in another cities, and after discovery of, e.g., nationalism rebel/freed civs keep some culture of a parent?

 

[Jarlaxe Baenre]

So, one issue is that, for some areas (the Americas), you lose your colonies no matter what. Eventually, some civs show up and things suck.

Perhaps there could be a subsystem that gives Colony Points or something, like how RFCE has Religion Points?

For every city founded, +1 Colony Point for that area. For every resource hooked up in that area, +1 Colony Point.

If you peacefully turn over cities to a rising civ, or grant them independence (b/c there's no South Africa, Australia or New Zealand and the like), you get to keep the colony points for the city(ies).

These points grant benefits of some sort—perhaps ones that inversely scale with # of cities, so that they're more significant if you've released colonies.

 

[Tigranes]

Sometimes AI needs a little help after being overwhelmed with all the new rules of this mod, like city flipping to Indy and catapulting all the defenders on the island. While having many Galleons AI simply cannot figure out how to evacuate all these units from Cyprus, because perhaps they think Cyprus is the part of continent and not an island and they cannot Load units into transport from there. One way or another it feels bad to see AI so helpless...

 

[ozqar]

Re the de-/colonization topic, an idea could be to tie the ethnic diversity of the city (can't remember now the exact name) to the former master and to grant better relations / influence the higher the composition. Other factors that can/should be taken into account are whether the master grants independence willingly or whether there is an independence war. That could avoid having an additional "colony point" system-

 

[need my speed]

Add a trade route between 'random city in owner civilisation in owner's core, cycling through all cities there before adding a second trade route to one city' and 'city outside owner's core that was released'?

Although I'm not sure whether it's desirable for Rome to get bonus trade routes with all of Europe if Rome lets France and all spawn in peace. So perhaps an additional qualifier is needed.

But even so, a trade route doesn't weigh up against the loss of land and resources. Maaaybe, but most likely not, if you also duplicate all resources that a released city has access to. I think this idea - making decolonisation worth it - is impossible, given that Civilization IV's axiom is (and should be! Don't destroy the entire point of the game as Civilization V did!) that more land is better.

 

[Leoreth]

So, one issue is that, for some areas (the Americas), you lose your colonies no matter what. Eventually, some civs show up and things suck.

Perhaps there could be a subsystem that gives Colony Points or something, like how RFCE has Religion Points?

For every city founded, +1 Colony Point for that area. For every resource hooked up in that area, +1 Colony Point.

If you peacefully turn over cities to a rising civ, or grant them independence (b/c there's no South Africa, Australia or New Zealand and the like), you get to keep the colony points for the city(ies).

These points grant benefits of some sort—perhaps ones that inversely scale with # of cities, so that they're more significant if you've released colonies.

Re the de-/colonization topic, an idea could be to tie the ethnic diversity of the city (can't remember now the exact name) to the former master and to grant better relations / influence the higher the composition. Other factors that can/should be taken into account are whether the master grants independence willingly or whether there is an independence war. That could avoid having an additional "colony point" system-

I wouldn't have gone with a system of positive points for having colonies because colonies already have numerous benefits themselves. Instead adapting something like the liberty bells from Colonization could work. They could build up over time, maybe even modified by tech and civics. The more you get, the more severe do your empire wide penalties become (unhappiness? upkeep? maybe it's worth bringing back colony maintenance in such a context). Losing/releasing a colony would reset the count by a lump sum. There could even be a mechanism to reward you for releasing a city early, like vassalage or positive relations with the released civ or even positive modifiers (happiness? GPP?) in your core, so there is a choice between hanging on to colonies as much as possible or releasing them earlier. Forcibly losing colonies e.g. through a spawn would also give those benefits.

If this liberty desire is tied to city population and/or buildings it would even introduce an incentive not to develop your colonies too much. Such a mechanic could also reflect how small colonies were first easy to maintain and not that profitable (early colonialism), then profitable but with mounting costs (high imperialism) and later too expensive to maintain (decolonisation). If you tie civ specific modifiers, this would even nicely reflect initially profitable but long term detrimental colonial empires such as the Dutch or Portuguese ones, which we all agree stick around too long at the moment.

View attachment 484808

Sometimes AI needs a little help after being overwhelmed with all the new rules of this mod, like city flipping to Indy and catapulting all the defenders on the island. While having many Galleons AI simply cannot figure out how to evacuate all these units from Cyprus, because perhaps they think Cyprus is the part of continent and not an island and they cannot Load units into transport from there. One way or another it feels bad to see AI so helpless...

This is less of an issue with flips themselves but rather the AI being very bad at ferrying units between different land masses.

City garrisons should be evacuated to a nearby city before a flip though. Do you have a save where I can look at what happened here? Maybe I can avoid having the units end up there in the first place.