Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, Sep 11, 2014.
Isn't "Basileia" just Greek for kingdom?
It is Greek for Kingdom, but historically, the Basileus' role in the development of Athenian Democracy was not merely that of losing his power, rather, the position of Archon diminished in its potency from a despot to a magistrate over the course of the reforms, ergo the use of the term implying that the position the lineage of rulers currently possess will not be entirely erased when and if the country next changes civics.
It's a kingdom.
The Iranian starting stack of units should include a couple of Muslim Imams, in case none of the Iranian cities have Islam yet.
Spoiler Iranian Religions :
I like having some things in DOC up to chance, Iran had a very strong identity before Islam so it makes sense that they could had moved away from Islam (possibly). I like seeing more in-game variety.
Maybe then a special case should be included that starts their state religion as Zoroastrianism if none of their cities have Islam.
Fair enough, that is a part of the game. I think it just feels weird for me to be abandoning a Muslim for a Zorastrian Theocracy in the 16th century.
Suggestion for alternative Japan unique power:
The Power of Culture: after discovering all medieval technologies, core & historical* cities receive additional research** equal to 10% of culture production.
Reflects Japan's modernization post 1600, and the relevance of today's Japanese corporate/consumer grade cultural output (i.e. lean manufacturing/manga).
Modernization boost slows when Himeji Castle becomes obsolete. Effectively becomes a production boost with the availability of half price factories.
Industrialization/globalism boost from film, radio, and TV.
Rewards completing the culture goal historically (not culture bombing with 1/2 cities super early).
Effectively grants 5-15% additional base research to qualifying cities. +20% boost during Himeji Castle era.
At least AI Japan will see some benefit.
This encourages the tech catch-up & become tech lead gameplay.
The current git version Japan has very fair modifiers, but arguably too good research rate pre-renaissance. This UP allows for a somewhat dynamic research rate tied to culture production. If implemented, I suggest adjusting Japan's base research modifier to compensate.
Hopefully the idea is technically feasible.
* If applied to all cities, this may be difficult to balance. Let's avoid totalitarian anime domination (for now).
** I prefer additional commerce instead of research, but not sure due to possible culture slider recursion weirdness (+10% commerce >> +1% culture >> +0.1% commerce >> etc.)
Pretty sure there are all kinds of built-in (but under-the-table) modifers to research, culture, production, etc., that affect the game in this sort of way. If I remember, that hidden research modifier was why Leoreth changed the Unique Power for China, since it was effectively redundant (...? Not sure if that's right).
I never considered that power redundant, it was just very hard to balance.
-Arabian UP autobuilds state religion temples in all cities with state religion, not just conquered ones (or just Islam if we're afraid a player might abuse that by switching state religion),
-The "state religion spreads to conquered cities" effect is now a Theocracy bonus.
I like this idea. But keep in mind that although at first glance it looks like a bonus to research it is in fact a bonus to culture.
Each turn you have one hundred percent of commerce (a relative amount) you split to achieve a certain number of gold, bulbs (science), culture and espionage (all absolute amounts) To achieve the desired absolute amount of bulbs you can skimp on the science slider, but the skimped percentage has to be allocated to the cultureslider for the bonus to take effect.
Some buildings produce an amount of culture that is not effected by the commercesliders, but still add to the total amount of commerce (more precisely your economy, which consists of commerce and hammers) albeit allocated to culture by default (0% culture on the commercesliders is not really 0% after you built your first monument/temple/library)
Don't get me wrong, I still like the idea a lot. Espicially in an environment with a high demand for culture. But to achieve your aim (raising the sciencebar above 100% of your commerce) you do indeed need to increase your economy relative to the cost of persued invention(s).
An implementation that would do that would be:
Allow the scienceslider to go above 100% at the expense of gold...
(eg 50% science turns 200 commerce into 100 bulbs and 100 gold,
100% science turns 200 commerce into 200 bulbs and 0 gold
110% science turns 200 commerce into 220 bulbs and -20 gold)
...limited by the relative amount dedicated to culture.
So if the total amount of culture consists of 20% of the economy the percentage of science allocated can get as high as 120% (but each turn you will have a deficit in gold of 40% of your economy ouch!)
Theoretically, if you could turn 100% of your economy into culture you could allocate 200% to science, but be prepared to pay 200% of your economy in gold each turn. Thank god for great manga merchants!
Re Force: I'm just talking about additional culture from buildings and settled great artists. See below from an old game.
Spoiler 1608 Culture :
Spoiler Commerce Science :
Even running 100% science with national collage, you produce enormous culture from the Himeji Castle +100%
If the conversion power is implemented, 10% of the 219 culture = additional 22 beakers.
I see. I think we are talking about two different subjects.
I am talking about artificially increasing the Japanese economy by allowing additional taxation, limited by culture, of which the revenue can only be spent on science.
If I understand you correctly you are talking about increasing the Japanese economy by multiplying your culture, of which the increase in culture can only be spent on science.
(in your example 110% of 219 culture is 241 culture (rounded up from 240.9 culture)
(110% of 219 culture) - (100% of 219 culture) = 22 culture
this culture is not spent on the pool of accumulated culture, but on on the pool of accumulated science towards the next invention)
I guess my point of critique, if any, because I like the idea, is what narrative around this power makes it Japanese?
Did Shinto priests suddenly become part time scientists? (not unlike the monks in medieval europe)
But the (implied) question in my previous post is not so much how to implement your idea, as it is: "What is the idea you are trying to implement?"
I figured it was increasing the Japanese economy (because you preferred commerce over research) somehow tied to Japanese culture. (but specifically with the aim to catch up to and surpass your rivals on science)
Even if your suggessition for this UP for Japan does not make it into the mod as the UP for Japan, I still do hope it will eventually be implemented for another civilization. South Africa comes to mind, they had a very strong culture tied to science. (eg. first live heart transplant
link: -> https://academic.oup.com/eurheartj/article/38/46/3402/4706200 )
I have no idea how you would resolve this, but I feel there should be some sort of issue/conflict with being able to camp out in someone else's waters adjacent to someone you're at war with. Right now I'm Italy just picking off Moroccan ships and retreating to Spain; if there are 2 ships, I can just destroy 1 with no risk to myself. Maybe diplomatic penalties?
Maybe it should be just a general diplomatic penalty for having open borders with a civ they're at war with. Similar to "You've traded with our worst enemies", but without the warring civs needing to be worst enemies.
As a complement to that, maybe there should be an additional diplomatic bonus for having open borders with someone when they're at war.
My idea is about the modernization rework i.e. how Japan avoided colonization. The current modernization power was found to be lacking - I'm trying to think up an actionable power that has an effect post 1800's when civs are less willing to trade techs. The goal is to reproduce the technological / economic growth of the modernization era, and to have some residual use for the rest of the tech race game.
The culture conversion proposal is an abstraction of this, perhaps not the most appropriate. I am fond of culture playing a part because it gives the player agency to affect the power instead of being a passive economic/research boost. Additionally, the large culture boost ends when machine tools is discovered - a convenient time to dampen any catch up power.
Modernization (westernization) was accomplished through trade. A more appropriate implementation could be to increase trade routes (# of routes and/or yield) during the historic period. This encourages open borders & trade with Europe. I just can't think of a mechanism to tie this idea to culture (my pet idea).
The uninspired solution would be to just improve the civ modifiers upon entering the renaissance era (research & GP rate) and call that a UP.
1) turn off the possibility of score victory. Especially when the game ends at 2020 IIRC, modern times have exceeded that anyway. But most importantly, it is annoying that no one can win the game in a satisfying way.
2) allow the Huns to be playable. They were playable in Civ V, so why not? And that should be useful to have something to go off of, although I would say they shouldn't start off with any cities, but OP armies, relatively speaking.
3) ditto for Gaul, although they did have cities IIRC. And they were playable in Civ VI. Although probably not near as strong of a military, at least to start off with. And they did sack Rome at least once, so historically significant enough to warrant being included.
4) I find it impossible to win as Rome, and I only play on the default victory. Maybe something like giving them an army that automatically appears in Egypt, for example, would make it much more realistic to achieve a unique historical victory with them.
I like the idea of the huns! The only thing is it seems they were not around for that long in terms of game time. Just 4th century to 6th century really, not only would that be very short but with such a war based civ I think it would only really be playable in Marathon at all. Is there anyone they could be merged with and have the change just a dynamic civ name? I haven't done a huge amount of research but it looks like not much is known of their origins, I was thinking maybe the Scythians but that does seem to also be more speculation than historical fact as of now.
I think if they were to be included, a possible UHV goal could be "acquire x gold through raiding, razing, and peace treaties by 450 AD."
Not sure about no cities though, it's tough either way. It might make more historical sense but from what I read it seems their wars were more raiding in search of tribute than actual conquest, so gaining cities that way would also be a bit weird.
My understanding is the Huns were more historically decisive than the Scythians, and that the Scythians were just a one hit wonder in that regard for killing Cyrus. Although, I could be wrong and will not pretend that I’m an expert. Venice is also included in a Civ game (V) and could be worthy to take into consideration.
Edit: I will also double down on my opinion that western/original Rome needs a buff. In my games even when the AI controls them they are nowhere near as powerful and relevant as in IRL. And also never get close to owning all the lands they historically had at any point.
Finally: if possible, i would like to fix it so western Rome and eastern Rome/Byzantine are not allowed to declare war on each other no matter what as is the case in the total war games. Or at least minimize the possibility of it as much as can be done. There was never a remote chance of that happening IRL for obvious reasons, and my understanding is the mod is trying to be historically accurate at least to some extent.
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