Suggestions and Requests

Oh, I want to add another thing that really bothers me about both Civ5+ and Humankind. It is incredibly cramped in those games. Civ5 shrunk down the scale of the world by "unstacking" units and creating the carpet of doom where the entire world was filled with units. Civ6 decided to learn from this mistake by repeating it and "unstacking" cities as well. City district and adjacency bonuses are nice in concept but now we have a world that is primarily various cities and what isn't it filled with units. All of that just makes the world feel incredibly small.
This is probably my #1 problem with Civs V and VI, and why I stopped playing them entirely in favor of IV. It's like I'm playing a board game, but in a bad way.

That said, the one thing I like better in V than in IV is the cultural victory introduced in the Brave New World expansion, and the things around it, like museums, archaeologists finding artefacts, splitting Great Artists into Great Writers, Great Artists, and Great Musicians, and the real presence of their great works as objects that can be viewed (or heard) and also traded. "Three cities with legendary culture" is pretty plain in comparison.
 
Can we display in the city interface how many cultural points are currently needed to achieve a 20%/50% cultural ratio?
I suspect that the cultural ratio may not function properly (my cultural ratio in both the city and land interface exceeds 50%, but I am still punished for cultural stability)
 
Can we display in the city interface how many cultural points are currently needed to achieve a 20%/50% cultural ratio?
I suspect that the cultural ratio may not function properly (my cultural ratio in both the city and land interface exceeds 50%, but I am still punished for cultural stability)
Can you upload a save of that situation?
 
This is a minor thing, but can cities and forts acting as canals require a tech to unlock? It feels weird that putting down houses in 2000 BC mimics the incredible feats of engineering required to build things like the panama canal. I know some level of imagination is needed but I think it would be cool if it was tied to like a late industrial era tech. Plus then you wouldn't need to block off the panama tile from being founded early.
 
This is a minor thing, but can cities and forts acting as canals require a tech to unlock? It feels weird that putting down houses in 2000 BC mimics the incredible feats of engineering required to build things like the panama canal. I know some level of imagination is needed but I think it would be cool if it was tied to like a late industrial era tech. Plus then you wouldn't need to block off the panama tile from being founded early.
You mean like keep track of which direction a ship came into a city from and only let it move out of the city in that direction? If so, does that mean a newly built ship can move out of a city in any direction? Forts seem simple enough, just prevent ships from entering them, but cities seem a lot more of a headache.
 
I think I remember a mod where forts and cities only let ships move to and from the side with more water tiles, but I don't remember which one. It might have undesirable consequences though.

I've mentioned this before but it feels like Forts in general could use some brainstorming, they seem like a pretty marginal part of the game. The simplest way would probably be giving them additional yield.

Another possibility I'm not sure is possible: having Forts existing in parallel to regular improvements, maybe as a type of road (which could only be built within certain distance of each other).
 
I think it's fine if forts and cities allow passage of ships early. In Egypt, the canal of the pharaohs was a precursor to the Suez canal in antiquity. In central America, a lot of commercial and military material, as well as travelers, were moved across the isthmuses of Panama and Tehuantepec centuries before the Panama canal was built. I don't think they'd move the ships themselves (they would instead ship the stuff to the port on one side, then move over land to the other port and board on new ships), but it's not a huge stretch to allow a galleon or something to cross. We can view it as a little bit of abstraction to avoid ship-related tedium.
 
I genuinely think Civ5 looks terrible. Remember when it was discovered that all tech, building etc icons were stolen from the internet?
I don't really care for the interface or icons, but I love the terrain and leaderheads.
Hot Take: Hexes in 4X games are horrible and the fact that they are now the standard ruins so many otherwise decent games. Yes, I would love to have an Earth map where it's literally impossible for a tile to be due north of another, I would love it if RFC used a tiling system that made the Earth look like it was scribbled by a toddler
Hexes are better, IMHO, because I didn't like how with squares, diagonal zig-zagging and a straight line both took the same number of movement points. Hexes fixed that problem.
The worst thing is that 1UPT fixes a problem that never even existed in the first place! It's the equivalent of banning button mashing in a fighting game. Of course you'll lose to spam when you refuse to counter what is being spammed.
If I were designing a civ game, I would probably do something like 3 combat units per tile, 4 in cities or on forts. That's a happy medium between 1UPT and stacks of doom.
 
I don't really care for the interface or icons, but I love the terrain and leaderheads.
The terrain feels low contrast and undersaturated to me, but to be clear the basegame terrain in Civ4 is also not very good. I'm sure there are good mods for it. The leaderheads are very good, but my concern with them is that they make modding very hard. The requirements to create a new Civ5/6 leaderhead are so much higher than for Civ4.
Hexes are better, IMHO, because I didn't like how with squares, diagonal zig-zagging and a straight line both took the same number of movement points. Hexes fixed that problem.
I am agnostic on squares vs hexes but I never really understood why this is a problem. It seems like it's more a problem in people's minds than for the game design. If it's really an issue I don't see why making diagonal moves cost 1.4 movement isn't the easier solution.

If I made a game like this I'd probably still use squares only to avoid accidentally designing an operational/tactics game instead of a strategy game. There is a weird culture attached to hex based games that comes from the wargame community.
 
The terrain feels low contrast and undersaturated to me, but to be clear the basegame terrain in Civ4 is also not very good. I'm sure there are good mods for it.
Even though it is somewhat undersaturated, I think the textures are nice, and the mountains, especially, the way the mountain ranges are rendered look way better than the Civ 4 method of just having the same mountain copied ad infintum. The water is also very pretty in Civ 5. I don't know why Civ 4 Col had nicer water than regular Civ 4, though. I don't know if you ever played the "Paradise Found" scenario, but I found it to be relaxing in a strange way. Sailing across the vast South Pacific, the beautiful ocean graphics, that flute music. There's a bit of a nostalgia factor, there, too, since I played that scenario over and over again in 2011.
The leaderheads are very good, but my concern with them is that they make modding very hard. The requirements to create a new Civ5/6 leaderhead are so much higher than for Civ4.
I agree with that. While I never really loved the style of the Civ 4 leaderheads, I appreciate that they were easy to "remix" and create new leaderheads out of easily. I actually preferred the style of the Civ 3 leaderheads to the Civ 4 leaderheads, and loved the changing costumes/backgrounds on them.
Speaking of leaderheads, is there any chance you would replace the current Washington leaderhead with the one from Civ 4 Col?
I also found a nice Chiang Kai-shek leaderhead. It might be cool to have the Chinese leader in the modern era change based on what civics they are running.
I am agnostic on squares vs hexes but I never really understood why this is a problem. It seems like it's more a problem in people's minds than for the game design. If it's really an issue I don't see why making diagonal moves cost 1.4 movement isn't the easier solution.

If I made a game like this I'd probably still use squares only to avoid accidentally designing an operational/tactics game instead of a strategy game. There is a weird culture attached to hex based games that comes from the wargame community.
I also like the shape of the hex terrain better. Civ 5 coastlines aren't nearly as blocky as Civ 4 coastlines. Having diagonal moves cost 1.4 movement doesn't really work when most units have only 1 movement per turn.
 
I agree with that. While I never really loved the style of the Civ 4 leaderheads, I appreciate that they were easy to "remix" and create new leaderheads out of easily. I actually preferred the style of the Civ 3 leaderheads to the Civ 4 leaderheads, and loved the changing costumes/backgrounds on them.
Oh yeah, the changing appearance of Civ3 leaderheads was a cool feature. At least it tried to address the absurdity of "Lincoln in the Stone Age" but I guess it might also draw more attention to it. They probably dropped it in later games as LHs became more demanding to make.

Also I want to say that I never really liked the aesthetics and tone for any Civ game including Civ4. Civ2 was very in love with the then novel windows drop down menu and context menu UI and suffers from it a lot. Civ4 has a very strange attempt at comic art style and exaggerated personality, it shines through in how a lot of the leaderheads are drawn clearly for comedic effect (Montezuma's tantrums come to mind) as well as some diplomatic messages that go in that direction (and you could say the games overall art style is comic oriented). Not sure where this was coming from really, but thinking about WC3 being in the same time period maybe it was just in the air. I never liked the shiny sleek UI and iconography design of Civ5. Art deco is so inherently modern which puts you out of touch with the historical setting of most of the game. Civ6 really just looks like a Facebook game to me, I still don't understand how this got released in whatever year it came out as a AAA game and wasn't soundly laughed out of the room. Sorry.
Speaking of leaderheads, is there any chance you would replace the current Washington leaderhead with the one from Civ 4 Col?
I haven't thought about it, but sure.
I also like the shape of the hex terrain better. Civ 5 coastlines aren't nearly as blocky as Civ 4 coastlines. Having diagonal moves cost 1.4 movement doesn't really work when most units have only 1 movement per turn.
It is, but sometimes you also do want a straight coastline and it looks weird with the hex shaped jigsaw pattern. The fact that hexes allow straight horizontal arrangements but not straight vertical arrangements always bothered me.
 
Forts could give a yield of +2 gold and add +1 trade route in capital, or +1 Great merchant per x forts.
The reason behind it is that usually forts are built not only for the purpose of defending some people, but also to defend trade routes.
They are supposed to protect the caravans and traders passing over vast distances, and also to accommodate the traders on the road, supply them with food and water and give them a place to rest.
Half an inn, half a fort.
Examples to that is the silk road, which had a lot of inns and guards spread over the whole way, meant to facilitate easy and safe passage.
The whole roman frontier to the east was dotted with forts, that protect the empire from the barbarians, but were also a commercial hub and the destination, the final stations of the silk road, and those forts had huge markets with goods from all over Asia, Africa and Europe, including china and India, Chinese silk.
 
Also I want to say that I never really liked the aesthetics and tone for any Civ game including Civ4. Civ2 was very in love with the then novel windows drop down menu and context menu UI and suffers from it a lot. Civ4 has a very strange attempt at comic art style and exaggerated personality, it shines through in how a lot of the leaderheads are drawn clearly for comedic effect (Montezuma's tantrums come to mind) as well as some diplomatic messages that go in that direction (and you could say the games overall art style is comic oriented). Not sure where this was coming from really, but thinking about WC3 being in the same time period maybe it was just in the air. I never liked the shiny sleek UI and iconography design of Civ5. Art deco is so inherently modern which puts you out of touch with the historical setting of most of the game. Civ6 really just looks like a Facebook game to me, I still don't understand how this got released in whatever year it came out as a AAA game and wasn't soundly laughed out of the room. Sorry.

I've never really liked how much focus the leaders get especially in later games but they're a staple of the franchise at this point, as well as the comical attempts at giving them more personality. I guess you could call them "charismatic" history along with wonders, like there is charismatic megafauna.

Three questions:

1) Are your issues with Civ IV mostly to do with the leaderheads or do they extend to the rest of the game's aesthetics as well?

2) Do you think some mods significantly improve the game on the aesthetic front (besides Blue Marble)?

3) Did you ever consider changing the leaderheads to static art (paintings, etc) like some mods do? I assume you might have and there's a good reason why you've kept animated leaderheads as the lesser evil.
 
I mean, DoC's best selling point for me is that it's artistically consistent and it isnt incredibly scrambled. It doesnt mash up too many styles, which is something that i've seen happening and your mileage can vary.
 
I've never really liked how much focus the leaders get especially in later games but they're a staple of the franchise at this point, as well as the comical attempts at giving them more personality. I guess you could call them "charismatic" history along with wonders, like there is charismatic megafauna.
I think that's a very good way of putting it. Perhaps unsurprisingly I am following a lot of discussions about the nature and appeal of historical 4X games on places like Three Moves Ahead and Soren Johnson's podcast and one thing that keeps coming up on why historical 4X games are so popular compared to scifi or fantasy settings is that everyone knows what The Wheel is and what the Pyramids are and who George Washington is. I don't even want to say emotional connection but it gives a point of grounding that helps contextualise what happens in the game. People think about their games as "oh this time the Chinese built the Pyramids but the Egyptians founded an island trade empire" and our pre-existing knowledge about the Chinese and Egyptians fills in the gaps or contrasts with game events, so that the game itself does not need to do much to explain what the Egyptians and Chinese are for the player to engage in that way.

If your science fiction game has the Protaxians invent the hyperphase drive but the Sorgoids build a spaceship with tachyon cannons that can mean everything and nothing. Such a game would need to do a lot of work to make you get an understanding of who those people and what those technologies are. Most confusingly don't even bother and that's why these games fall flat.

It's also what makes Alpha Centauri so remarkable as a game because it does invent a weird future setting but uses the tools of the genre extremely well to establish an emotional connection with the weird things in it (just think of the Recycling Tanks quote and stuff like that). And nevertheless it is still a niche game.

Three questions:

1) Are your issues with Civ IV mostly to do with the leaderheads or do they extend to the rest of the game's aesthetics as well?
I think the way units and terrain elements and buildings are proportioned is all a bit too cartoony for my taste, but it was probably a good move at the time to include strategy players with bad hardware and turn the flaw of the limited graphics into a virtue. Like I said above, Civ5 does a turn for realism and drabness and that works even less for me.

2) Do you think some mods significantly improve the game on the aesthetic front (besides Blue Marble)?
Oh definitely. I think the game in its DoC state (i.e. mostly Blue Marble added) actually looks really good. I don't mind the cartoony proportions that much, once you are used to it as what the game looks like it's fine. I don't know if there are major improvements on top of that. I think graphical improvements go more in the direction of variety rather than quality for most mods.
3) Did you ever consider changing the leaderheads to static art (paintings, etc) like some mods do? I assume you might have and there's a good reason why you've kept animated leaderheads as the lesser evil.
With all I said about some of the animations, I think you lose a lot if leaderheads do not respond at all. The diplomacy screen is all you have in terms of interaction with AI "players". If you play the game a lot there is little illusion left with respect to the "realness" of your opponent but it's still better if you have something to cling on to to sustain that idea.

And like Logoncal mentions, it would be difficult to impossible to find consistent artwork for all leaders in the game. I'd rather have everyone equally cartoony looking than juxtapose Baroque paintings with medieval illustrations with Babylonian relief works. Or worse, mix actual historical depictions with artist's imaginations. At least the animated leaderheads are honest about capturing the idea of a historical character more than being a factual depiction of them.
 
RE: Leaderheads, I've always found them to be really weird. They at once want to be a famous person from history and an immortal god. If they're going for a "spirit of the society" vibe, I feel like they could be just as well be swapped out with cultural entities that can be changed by some mechanic, like for the USA, Rosie the Riveter for production, Uncle Sam for expansion, and Lady Liberty for culture, or for Greece, Hellas for defense, Odysseus for expansion, and Prometheus for science.

I don't really care for the interface or icons, but I love the terrain and leaderheads.

Hexes are better, IMHO, because I didn't like how with squares, diagonal zig-zagging and a straight line both took the same number of movement points. Hexes fixed that problem.

If I were designing a civ game, I would probably do something like 3 combat units per tile, 4 in cities or on forts. That's a happy medium between 1UPT and stacks of doom.
Again, stacks of doom aren't a problem if you properly balance collateral damage. There's no need to create artificial limitations on the player when the same effect can be produced by giving the player counterplay.
 
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DoC's stacks of doom are really not that powerful, by the way. Artillery got mega buffed by having their collat and retreat increased, so you can throw them at a stack more often.
And it hurts.
 
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