Suggestions and Requests

[ozqar]

There was a situation: I play for the India (3000 BC script), the Roman collapse in 271 AD, but the Byzantium not spawn.

New suggestion: the Byzantium spawn without conditions.

I've been asking for such an unconditional spawn for Byzantium a couple of times. I'll do it again here!

==> It's a really huge gap not to have them! It's literally a millennium-long civilizational hole in the middle of Eurasia if they're not there!

;D

 

[Leoreth]

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but "better conditional-ness" is among the things that I'd like to work on as soon as they are enabled by separating civs from player slots. I'd like to do a holistic overhaul of what it means for a civ to have a conditional spawn and what the conditions might be, including more varied triggers. This includes revisiting the scenarios in which already conditional civs like Byzantium will or will not show up.

 

[hnrysml]

I was wondering is there a thread for people to put forward their ideas for how the mod could be more historically accurate, and how these ideas could be implemented into gameplay keeping it fun and balanced?

For example, during the Moorish spawn Barcelona and Marseilles (the latter city was not part of the Umayyad Caliphate but the region of the map it approximates was) should flip to the moors. For the next few centuries the region around Barcelona should remain Moorish in an average game. Maybe the Spanish could get a bonus to counter this loss.

Along the same lines, in-game, North Africa is rarely conquered by the Arabs (apart from Egypt) when historically it was in the 7th century. When playing as Arabia, the Moors don't offer to become vassals to Arabia often enough, when historically the region wasn't independent from the rest of the Arab-ruled world until the Almohads in the 12th century.

My point is not to necessary discuss this right now, but to find if there is a specific thread for these kind of discussions, or if not, should one be created?

(Edit: I've just realised I've read my history wrong in regards to the Moorish Spain and that during the Caliphate of Cordoba era (11th century) they did exist independently from the Abbasid Caliphate Arab world, but my point, about asking how we can change gameplay to show all this, still stands.)

 

[Force44]

Historical accuracy, implementation, (fun) gameplay and balance are widely divergent topics.

Personally I think this very thread seems an exccellent place when adressing all four of them at the same time.

But if you disagree please don't hesitate to make a thread of your own on my account.
I would be interested to learn more about such detailed complex suggestions.

 

[Leoreth]

Sorry I meant to answer this earlier. Discussions of this kind are always greatly appreciated, but it's up to you if you'd like to have them here or in a separate thread.

 

[hnrysml]

All right! Thanks. If I have any big thoughts or ideas I'll bring them up here. Most of the things I'd like to see changed about the mod are already in a state of discussion or development (or they're just little things like changes to the colonial era resource spawns, that I can easily change myself). I do however have one idea I'd like to discuss now, something I've seen mentioned before, but not recently:

One of the biggest things that I'd like to see added, not only to improve gameplay and historicity, is for civilisation to be added in North-central Asia around the Tarim Basin and Samarkand, a region that is currently mostly barren desert in the mod, but has been a very fertile and populous centre of trade in the era of the mod, and certainly isn't mostly desert today, despite desertification. Some of the desert should stay, but only in a few isolated tiles between the Caspian and Aral seas, and most of the Taklamakan should stay as it is already. (There's already far too much desert in Asia, each desert area such as in Iran and the Thar desert in India being much, much larger than are in reality.)

I think having a civ here would not only to be fun to play as (like an early version of the colonial civs like the Netherlands that achieve historical victory by getting resources, and maybe another goal about fending off barbarians/other empire building civs like Persia, Arabia, and China.), but also help better represent the silk route in the game.

Maybe the best civ to represent this region would be the Tocharians or Hepthalites, but that could change, like the Sumeria becomes Babylon as time progresses in the game. The central time of gameplay for a civ in this region would be the first centuries common era, coming into contact with the byzantines, persians, chinese, and indians, and declining after pressure from the spread of Islam.

Also this region was historically crucial because of the contact between the Tang and Abbasid Caliphate (both often considered "Golden Ages" of these empires) at this time. For players who want to try and experience a kind of "what if" version of history, the world could've potentially been very different if it was Chinese, rather than Arabic influence, that prevailed in Central Asia from the 8th century onward.

I know this is some rather vague and anecdotal writing on why this should all be represented in the mod, but I guess the main reasons are it would be historical, and it could make for some fun and gameplay. Sorry for the rather long-winded post, everyone, I'm not great at writing with concision.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Do you have plans of bringing back Broadway and Musicals instead of that, ugh, soccer stadium Rhye replaced it with in his anti-American crusade?

 

[Leoreth]

For Central Asia, a Turkic civ for the region has been discussed at length. I could also see the Kushans in the area.

 

[hnrysml]

Yes! I think it seems like definitely a lower priority for development compared to the massive bulk of stuff you are doing at the moment. I'm not sure if it would be helpful or if I'd end up doing a good job but I could start working out how the terrain and resources should be changed based on the locations of important cities and historical centres - I can definitely see the addition of a lot more disappearing flood plains (like the one currently west of Samarkand) to represent the fertility of that region in antiquity.

In regards to you, Knoedel, despite a hit football game seeming like a rather weird idea for a resource, I think it actually is a better fit, because otherwise all three wonder-related resources are from the US. Popular culture and entertainment in the 20th and 21st centuries might be dominated by the US,, but does that really need to solely represented by American wonders? Furthermore, football/soccer is globally far more popular than musicals, and there's more money and trade in soccer than in musicals (judging by the sponsorships, how it is televised, and the salary of players), so logically makes more sense as a resource.

 

[Leoreth]

Sure, if you have a concrete proposal that would be very helpful later on. In that case maybe a separate thread would be better after all, it would make it easier for me to find the suggestion again when I need it.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

In regards to you, Knoedel, despite a hit football game seeming like a rather weird idea for a resource, I think it actually is a better fit, because otherwise all three wonder-related resources are from the US. Popular culture and entertainment in the 20th and 21st centuries might be dominated by the US,, but does that really need to solely represented by American wonders? Furthermore, football/soccer is globally far more popular than musicals, and there's more money and trade in soccer than in musicals (judging by the sponsorships, how it is televised, and the salary of players), so logically makes more sense as a resource.

Football is represented fine by Amphitheaters. It makes no sense as a resource. You can sell and buy films, music recordings, musical scripts, but you can't sell and buy a "Hit Football Event". Granted, it doesn't make sense that only one civ in the entire world is the source of all movies ever made. There is that one random event for movies I guess. Hm, I shall experiment with giving town improvements a tiny chance of popping these resources similar to mines in my modmod.

Also Broadway has a wonderful (hehe) wonder movie. Also America

 

[ozqar]

Well, the soccer industry definitely makes millions and millions by selling broadcasting rights for their "Hit Football Events", just ask FIFA

And some time ago I started a thread with some map change proposals, perhaps it would make sense to post these changes to Central Asia in there.

 

[need my speed]

Also America

What kind of fifth column communist are you even?

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Spoiler :

What kind of fifth column communist are you even?

One who always supports another nation than the one the person I'm talking to is proud of. When I'm talking to a real life friend of mine who is some sort of weird pan-European German-British-Scottish patriot who thinks that America and Russia are equal warmongering evils while Europe brought civilization to the savages around the world, you bet I have nothing but good things to say about the land of the free and home of the brave, the liberators of Europe from fascist barbarism. If I am however watching a PragerU video that defends American imperialism in Korea or Vietnam or victim blames the American black population for the systematic racism they face, I feel the urge to burn an American flag.

It's all about who I am addressing. In this context, I see Rhye as a Japano- and Germanophile Italian Europatriot whose Antiamericanism stems from resentment, rather than objective criticism, hence his views in this matter are to be ridiculed by fostering American cultural imperialism in this mod. While the USA doubtlessly have a massive negative impact on the world around them, it is a matter of quantity, not quality. Due to historical reasons (mainly Europe destroying itself in two world wars and the rest of the world being held in colonial bondage) the USA just so happen to be the most economically advanced and militarily powerful nation in the world. Since they are a capitalist nation, they are imperialist, and naturally use this advantage to the detriment of the workers of the world. However a world superpower France or Germany or Russia would act no different than they do if they had the necessary power projection. It is disingenuous to paint the Western European nations as some sort of peaceful civilized utopia in contrast with the warmongering dystopian USA, when Germany or France or the UK would do exactly the same if they held such a massive military and economic advantage over the rest of the world. Hell, that actually was the case once for the UK, it's called the Age of Imperialism, and don't even get me started on Germany's attempts at conquest.

Patriotism is always poison, and since I am living in Europe and encounter innumerable national flags of the bourgeois nation state that holds me as its citizen on my daily routine, I naturally have a tendency to focus more on the nationalism that affects me the most. In real life I have never encountered a single 'Murrican nationalist, but plenty of European ones. Be they pan European "The EU needs to be strong in order to compete with the superpowers America, Russia and China!" type or petty "MUH BRUSSELS BUREAUCRATS take away mah sacred national sovereignty", they all share the same disgust for the nations that liberated their ungrateful behinds from fascism. Thus it is justified to espouse 'Murrica in this context, since it doesn't come from genuine American patriotism, but a desire to subvert a competing nationalism.

Also as a rule of thumb, a good communist always hates their own country the most in the entire world.

Legends of Revolution has a "Trench" unit category for the likes of Machine Guns, Anti-Tanks and SAM, which imo is better than the awkwardness that is categorizing Machine Guns as Siege Weapons.

 

[ezzlar]

This might be a too big change of the game but what if the scope of the game was cut down to a tech level that would correspond to the 1970s. The game clock could still continue to 2000+.

This would prolong the late game units and mechanics. During late game units are produced almost in a time frame that corresponds to the next tech that gives the next unit. Also the Imperial age could use a few more turns. Usually the game goes directly from colonial settlement to independence without the great power conflicts in between.

A more refined tech would probably not solve the issue of new units popping every now and then since there are a total of too few turns available. There are a lot of units in the late game tech tree as well as buildings.

 

[Alpaya]

Hi all,
I've just finished game for Ethiopia and want to share my impression if you do not mind.

1. It is too much happiness in the early game, and even in XX century it is still too much. I almost never had problem with happiness of my cities; just in cases when there were too much corporations with unhappy faces I had some.
2. I know that tech tree under revision now, and this is good, because it is almost nothing to build in 19 and 20 centuries, and I hope new buildings will appear with new techs. Cities in late game with huge production level build everything quickly and then I had to set them just to create wealth or science.
3. AI Civs were collapsing very often and for unknown reasons. I think collapsing level should be decreased for AI civs, so they would be more stable.
4. My Civ expanded very wide and in the end of game I was owner of almost whole Africa and part of Asia without collapsing (with -22 for overexpansion, but with huge plus from other options). I think collapsing pressure for human player should be increased, so it would be more difficult to expand.
5. Consider to add following: Natural Wonders, embassies to establish permanent contacts with AI civs, unit to transfer food, hammers between cities, like caravan or freight.
6. If possible it would be great to have opportunity to produce more then one unit or building in one turn if production level allows do this.

Last two points were created in Rise of Mankind: A New Dawn Mod. Also this mod has a lot of buildings, units and other interesting ideas like early Guilds that works same as Corporations.

Thank you for this great mod and your attention.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

embassies to establish permanent contacts with AI civs

Aaaaaaand we have gone full circle.

 

[Alpaya]

Aaaaaaand we have gone full circle.

Something wrong with embassies? Sorry I did not follow this thread. Could you tell me why they were eliminated from the game?

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Something wrong with embassies? Sorry I did not follow this thread. Could you tell me why they were eliminated from the game?

I dare say that Rhye's and Fall of Civilization *invented* embassies for Civ4. This particular modmod removed it because it was such a hassls to have an additional building for every civilization, and they don't achieve anything a warrior couldn't do.

 

[Leoreth]

The problem was mostly that the implementation was bad. I'm not against bringing back embassies in a way that isn't a building.