Suggestions and Requests

[Force44]

Don't develop a minority complex on my account. The difference between dutch gymnasium and the second highest secondary education is only that either greek or latin is mandatory for the gymnasium where for the VWO (second highest second education) you may choose to do exams in either greek or latin (or both or whatever other subject you like). So the difference really is miniscule.

And besides, the dutch schoolsystem used to be so that after finishing one grade of secondary education you could continue with one one step up. (I met some people on the university who went there after completing the MAVO, HAVO and finally VWO (usually in evening classes))

 

[AbsintheRed]

The values that I gave were from the F2 screen. Albeit, I'm unsure as to how much good the save will do as the situation was partially induced with the WB. Anyway, assuming I figure out the attachment system of the forum, I'll put it in here. Otherwise, I'll use mediafire.
I tested it in this order:

• attack the size 1 city, razed. Stability changed as expected (expansion +1, swing -3)
• attack the size 3 city, razed. Further -3 in swing, but no change on expansion.
• attack the size 2 city, razed. expansion +1, swing -3, cities(left side) +4 (?)

I assume other combination should do something similar.

Investigated your save:

For the size 3 city, you get 1 penalty for the raze. So it's normal that there were no change in the expansion category with the Militarism civic.
There are no penalties for size 1 or 2 cities, so for the other 2 conquests you get +1 stability in the end (again, with the +1 from the Militarism Civic)

After you conquer/raze the size 2 city, there is +4 in the right side of the city stability.
That is the continuously recalculated value for your cities, and it's changed because your mainland cities now have access to Olive resource.
Previously that indy city was blocking the trade from Tyre.

Fortunately everything works perfectly here
Well, maybe not perfectly, but all those changes are to be expected with the current stability setup.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Found out in class that gymnos meant naked back in the day.

Ahh, I thought you were referring to 'gyms' as in places for working out
Anyway, this really is off-topic

 

[Force44]

offtopic stuff under spoiler

Spoiler :

Yes, my initial argument that Volksschule seems more like a medieval concept to me and gymnasium more a concept out of (perceived) antiquity seems to be spiraling out of controll.

And I haven't even gotten to the point yet of the trouble we had in school with the Greek texts where we were supposed to translate "He gave the order to". More often than not we ended up translating "He really fancied" and "He was in labour"
(the past tense of those three verbs is very similar in Dutch, and apparently really hard to distinguish even for native speakers)
Fond memories of days past.

But to get the topic back on track...

The Polish UA (imho) is a bit meh.

Golden Liberty
No unhappiness and no instability from non-statereligions

The (most notable) good points are, (1) it is really helpfull. And (2) It helps achieving the UHV.
The most significant weak points are (imo) that it is (1) a negative reward (you do not get punished for non-state religions) and that it is (2) invisible/hard to grasp (you do not get to see the bonus you receive)

To ameliorate these weak points I suggest to tie a bonus to the amount of religions in a Polish city.

example :

(I like this one, but it might be a bit too good, even without the (possible late game) bonus to 5 religions)

0 or 1 religion, no bonus.
2 religions, raise the minimum food in all improved tiles to 1
3 religions, raise the minimum food in all farmtiles to 3
4 religions, raise the food in all farmtiles by 1

(5 religions, raise the food in all improved tiles by 1)

The foodbonus gives an incentive to spread multiple religions across your empire and recuperates some of the cost of the missionaries you build to spread the religions. It also helps with one of the UHV-conditions.

 

[DC123456789]

I think the UP is good as is. I don't think the food idea makes much sense, and has the potential to be incredibly overpowered.

 

[AbsintheRed]

The Polish UP is more than fine.
It's one of the best in the game.

 

[Arcangelus]

I meant it's more of an institution than a building.
Maybe it would be better to add a different name and only speak about the Consulate of the Sea in the Civilopedia?

We could also use the Catalan term "Consolat de mar", if the English translation is weird-sounding (to me it isn't, but I'm not the best person to ask). Description wise, both are the same thing.

...Gymnazium .... Gimnázium ... dutch gymnasium... place where you work out....latin...greek... naked...

This little name discussion went quite far, it seems. While the consensus was "changing the name is a good idea", the exact name is not so clear. My favorite is "Gymnasium"(school), but I'll go with Volksschule to avoid confusion with gymnasium(building for sports, exercise, or physical education). Oh, how much I would like to know German right now... the German version of Volksschule seems so much more complete and interesting to read that the English version.

Spoiler :

The German term Volksschule refers to compulsory education, denoting an educational institution every person is required to attend. The exact level of education imparted varies by country, including primary education only in Austria while combining primary and lower secondary education in both Germany and Switzerland. [PARAGRAPH:1]In medieval times, and in accordance to the 1215 Fourth Council of the Lateran, church schools were established in the Holy Roman Empire to educate the future members of the clergy, later adopted by the Sunday schools of the Protestant Reformation. First secular schools followed during the Pietism movement from the late 17th century onwards and were further promoted by the advocates of the Enlightenment. [PARAGRAPH:1]In 1717 King Frederick William I of Prussia decreed the compulsory education of children from the age of five to twelve. They had to be able to write and read, and were obliged to memorize the Protestant catechism. In 1763 King Frederick the Great enacted the first Prussian general school law, elaborated by the theologian Johann Julius Hecker. Similar institutions were established in other German speaking regions.

I could also add somewhere a short explanation about how the building actually refers to the German Gymnasium, but due to the confusion it causes on English speakers it wasn't call like that. But again, it may refer to the "Eniaio Lykeio" instead...
I'll shut up now.

Spanish tranlations (and all other language translations of course) are very welcomed.

Due to formatting issues, I think it's better idea to upload the modified files. I mean, I can post the corresponding lines but it will get either confusing (code wrappers everywhere) or very easy to mess up (grammatically wise) and time consuming to implement. The downside is... that I haven't finished any file but this one.
Concepts.xml:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/26rcxqmwpplzzwz/CIV4GameText_RFCE_Concepts.xml

BTW, making the Crusades it's own section was a great idea.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Due to formatting issues, I think it's better idea to upload the modified files. I mean, I can post the corresponding lines but it will get either confusing (code wrappers everywhere) or very easy to mess up (grammatically wise) and time consuming to implement. The downside is... that I haven't finished any file but this one.
Concepts.xml:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/26rcxqmwpplzzwz/CIV4GameText_RFCE_Concepts.xml

BTW, making the Crusades it's own section was a great idea.

Great, and it's perfect if you upload the files themselves!

PS: Not that I mind mediafire, but you can also attach files directly to posts here.
Go Advanced / Manage Attachments
IIRC all civfanatics accounts have 50 megabytes of storage space.

 

[Force44]

@ DC123456789

Polish mediëval economy relied for a big part on the surpluss production of food.
(so I do not understand what you mean by it does not make much sense)

The potential overpoweredness is also my main concern.

But to be fair. +1 minimum food for polish cities is barely noticeable given the spots they would work.
A minimum of 3 food for farms is really nice for farms on plains but it does nothing for farms on grasslands (also 3 religions requires you to build at least one missionary and a foreign monastery)
The bonus of +1 food on all farm tiles is huge, but only half huge compared to the bonus you would receive from a 3 food minimum for farms (plains without resources already got 3 so mostly grasslands improve), also this implies spreading all religions (including islam) to that city before protestantism. This one is my biggest concern OP wise.

Maybe move this one up a tier (available at 5 religions), but what to put in its place?

~​

@ Absinthered

I want to say beforehand that I support you in whatever modding you deem a priority.
I have only the highest of admiration for the way you interact with and incorporate feedback from other people on the forums.

Having said that I disagree with both your statement The Polish UP is more than fine and your statement It's one of the best in the game.

First I consider it sufficient. Though barely.

It is a negative reward. A negative reward takes away a penalty everyone else receives.
Negative rewards enable players to perform certain things other players can't. Which is fine, but they do not support players to perform such things.

A good UP also supports the actions it enables.

Spoiler :

An example of a good UP is the UP of the Norwegians

Their reduced penalty for razing civs makes it possible to not collapse from instability from razing cities. (enabling)
And their increased mobility enables them to project a greater density of units in an area, thereby supporting the ability ot raze more cities. (supporting)

Which is great because one of their UV-conditions is to accumulate vikingpoints and razing cities makes up for a big chunk of that.

I consider the

Arabian, Austrian, Burgundian, Byzantine, Cordoban, Dutch, English, Genoan, German, Hungarian, Kievan, Lithuanian, Moroccan, Norwegian, Ottoman, Portuguese, Spanish and Swedish (yes! even Swedish)

UP's better for that reason alone.

(only 8 (9 with the Pope included) civs are on par or have a worse UP)

In my line of thought if the Hungarian UP (even in its current form, no instability from foreign and +1 per city) is up for improvement then the Polish UP should also be a candidate.

It is not that the Polish UP is so bad, it is just that every other UP already is so good that it pales in comparison.

 

[gilgames]

I think i must admit you are right in the way you think about UP's, they should be rewarding and supporting the nations goals.

 

[AbsintheRed]

@Force44
While I definitely agree with your statement that negative rewards are not ideal, in some cases we have to live with that.
I feel you underestimate the power of the Polish UP. In the mod stability is the single most important thing IMO for the human player.
Any UP boosting that is far better than for example a free promotion (to be honest the free promotion UPs are one of the weakest ones though )

Anyway, the reason why I consider the Polish UP one of the best is the indirect bonus:
As it enables having other religions in your cities without any penalties, it also enables temples and monasteries for all those religions.
That means a very significant happiness, culture, and science boost in all your cities.

Btw, I always liked those elimination threads in DoC and all the other forums.
Is someone willing to do one for the UPs here? I'm rather curious about the various opinions of UP strengths.

 

[DC123456789]

@ DC123456789

Polish mediëval economy relied for a big part on the surpluss production of food.
(so I do not understand what you mean by it does not make much sense)

Tying food production to number of religions in a city makes pretty much no sense at all, in my opinion.

 

[Swarbs]

It is a negative reward. A negative reward takes away a penalty everyone else receives.
Negative rewards enable players to perform certain things other players can't. Which is fine, but they do not support players to perform such things.

An example of a good UP is the UP of the Norwegians

Their reduced penalty for razing civs makes it possible to not collapse from instability from razing cities. (enabling)
And their increased mobility enables them to project a greater density of units in an area, thereby supporting the ability ot raze more cities. (supporting)

I must say I find these two statements contradictory. The Norwegian UP is a negative reward - it reduces the stability penalty from razing. This is as negative a UP as you can get.

Applying the same logic to the Polish UP:

Their reduced penalty for spreading religions makes it possible to not collapse from instability from religious dissent and grow cities larger without unhappiness. (enabling)
And their increased stability enables them to achieve a larger empire, thereby supporting the ability to spread religion to more cities and gain more research and happiness bonuses from religious buildings (supporting)

Without Poland's UP the civ would get -3 stability for every city with a foreign religion (-2 for the religion and -1 for the unhappiness created) and an extra -1 from every additional foreign religion. So this would mean -36 stability for the 12 cities with Orthodoxy and -8 for the four with Protestantism in order to meet the third UHV. Thus the UP is equivalent to a stability boost of +44 towards the UHV, which is massive.

If you are still unconvinced, try achieving the 3rd Polish UHV with any other civ. Ideally one with only three core provinces and five border provinces.

 

[Force44]

@Swarbs

I must say I find these two statements contradictory. The Norwegian UP is a negative reward - it reduces the stability penalty from razing. This is as negative a UP as you can get.

Hold on. Not receiving a penalty for razing cities is a negative reward. Nothing wrong with that. It is enabling.
Projecting a larger force is supporting

The supporting part is definitively a positive reward.

Applying the same logic to the Polish UP:

Their reduced penalty for spreading religions makes it possible to not collapse from instability from religious dissent and grow cities larger without unhappiness. (enabling)

true.

And their increased stability enables them to achieve a larger empire, thereby supporting the ability to spread religion to more cities and gain more research and happiness bonuses from religious buildings (supporting)

not true. An empire with only 1 religion still gets the same stability.
The part where they get extra happiness and science is because they have to build those buildings. So that part is enabling, not supporting.

Without Poland's UP the civ would get -3 stability for every city with a foreign religion (-2 for the religion and -1 for the unhappiness created) and an extra -1 from every additional foreign religion. So this would mean -36 stability for the 12 cities with Orthodoxy and -8 for the four with Protestantism in order to meet the third UHV. Thus the UP is equivalent to a stability boost of +44 towards the UHV, which is massive.

This is true, but it is the case for all civilizations

If you are still unconvinced, try achieving the 3rd Polish UHV with any other civ. Ideally one with only three core provinces and five border provinces.

This is basically what my beef with the Polish civilization boils down to. I referred to it in the first post I made about enhancing the Polish UB. The Polish bonus enables this UHV, it does not support it.

also @ DC123456789

The additional food supports the third goal as food can get converted to production.
(sense out of result)

Different religions do things differently. When they have a different diet a bigger food surplus is no less likely than a bonus to research out of teaching different dogma.
(sense out of comparison)

To put it differently: I am not saying the Polish UP should not be enhanced because skilled players can already exploit the bonus. I am saying the Polish UP should be enhanced because the player deserves it better and it can be made so.

 

[gilgames]

Polands first uhv isn't hard at all. Also 2nd and 3rd is ok and doable. The only problematic part is production in midgame. To build and maintain army. If we want to boost them (do we?) then give them extra hammers for farms os any kind of plus production and earlier uu.

I could not find that "elimination thread" you mentioned. Can you link it?

 

[Force44]

@ Absinthered.

My beef with the Polish UB is not so much about the power as it is about the conception.

For when playing with the Polish you get no reward for what you are supposed to do.

Good play will keep all those nice buildings you could build with all those religions to a minimum because of opportunity cost. Any "downtime" available to build those nice buildings indicates a designflaw on the side of all other civs. And I consider RFCE a mod already too good to contain such flaws in an obvious way.

 

[Swarbs]

This is basically what my beef with the Polish civilization boils down to. I referred to it in the first post I made about enhancing the Polish UB. The Polish bonus enables this UHV, it does not support it.

But that is largely the same with Norway - it enables the UHV as it means you don't collapse from razing, it doesn't really support it as it doesn't make it any easier to get Viking points. You don't get any reward for doing what you are supposed to do, you just get less penalties.

Enhanced naval movement is not necessary to achieve the UHV as you can just as easily follow the coast. All it does is make it slightly faster to get to some locations. Exactly the same as the Polish UHV makes it faster to spread religions, as you don't need to stop and build stability buildings / switch civics / grow your economy between each religion spread.

 

[Force44]

Get faster to locations -> shorter supply lines -> increase in military power -> raze stuff -> UHV

It is an interesting point you make for the Polish UHV. I tend to not take time away from building stability buildings because I need stability so badly in wars I am winning.

But it leaves the point that spreading religions without building buildings associated to it isn't much of a bonus unadressed. As it is it is in fact a handicap.

 

[Swarbs]

Spread religions without instability -> better stability -> less time spent on building stability buildings -> more time to expand and produce food and other buildings -> UHV

Both are shortcuts which improve the performance of the civilization - a boost to stability is no less powerful than a boost to military imo. In fact, it is more powerful because the Norse can still achieve their UHV without their UP, so it is only a partial enabler, whereas Poland would struggle to succeed without theirs.

I appreciate that is one of the sources of your discontent with it, but consider that the is more an issue with the stability challenges of spreading religion. And thus it would be near impossible to achieve the 3rd Polish UHV without massive instability and the risk of collapse. So if there were a problem (which I don't believe there is tbh) it would be more with the very difficult UHV than with the UP.

Also I disagree that spreading religions without buildings isn't much of a bonus - if anything it is a bigger bonus than most of the other UPs because whilst you need to build the buildings you get the bonuses permanently once you have them. It is equivalent to allowing the Polish civ to build an extra library, weaver and two extra churches per city. So it also helps with the food UHV, as more happiness means larger cities with more food production. And the stability boost from the extra happiness and lack of religious instability will also mean that health penalties can be safely ignored, so it provides an additional bonus in that regard. And you get more research growth, priest slots, culture and gold.

 

[Swarbs]

Get faster to locations -> shorter supply lines -> increase in military power -> raze stuff -> UHV

It is an interesting point you make for the Polish UHV. I tend to not take time away from building stability buildings because I need stability so badly in wars I am winning.

But it leaves the point that spreading religions without building buildings associated to it isn't much of a bonus unadressed. As it is it is in fact a handicap.

Me neither. But you can actually play Poland and win without ever building a manor house or castle, because there is no extra instability from foreign religions (-3 per city with a foreign religion massively outweights the castle building). I rarely have any problems with stability with Poland, and only build courthouses to keep maintenance down.

When you compare that to other civs which have to expand at the borders of multiple religions, it makes expansion much easier, which is a viable UP in and of itself.