Suggestions and Requests

[AbsintheRed]

Religious Law will do the trick in itself. You can try it, Byz game at 500AD Jerusalem can build jewish missionary.

What? no
There isn't even a Jewish Missionary in the mod.
Judaism is meant to be a minor religion in RFCE.
No direct ways of spreading it, other than Kazimierz.
(and that's also only semidirect, in a way that you can't choose the exact cities where to spread it)

 

[Force44]

@ Gilgames
I consider it borderline-exploitative (against the general idea of Judaism) but when playing Byz next time it is something I will try out for sure.

Thanks or the confirmation.

 

[AbsintheRed]

@ Gilgames
I consider it borderline-exploitative (against the general idea of Judaism) but when playing Byz next time it is something I will try out for sure.

Thanks or the confirmation.

You probably missed by post above.

 

[gilgames]

And it never was so? Or why am i then cunfused about it? I wasnt yesterday when i noticed that hey you can build jewish but ....idk why i do have such memories?!

 

[Force44]

This is true for the early Middleages. Later on, the irish-scottish monks were not as important as frankish and anglo-saxon missionaries. So, when the player actually get's a grasp on Ireland, the influence of the Celtic Church had already declined. It wouldn't make sense to give the Irish said option.

Thanks for the feedback.

That is something to keep in mind.

(I still like the idea of having 'improved' missionaries in some provinces and it is good to know that other areas are also a candidate.)

And when the bonus for an area becomes inappropriate it can be taken away (after the timeframe it was deemed appropriate)

I am hesitant to ask (because I do not have the option/skills to turn your imput into good work, but still) do you have information on what provinces in what timeframe would be candidates for a bonus to missionaries?

 

[Force44]

@ Absinthered
I was about to post a message that I was confused now since Gilgames seems to be able to do something that technically wouldn't even be possible.

Just to find out if I had the same superpower () I tried it for myself. -Sadly no.

So all appears to be well (and in order) in the RFCE-universe.

ps. (just a little feedback) It takes quite a lot of time giving orders to all the byzantine units the very first turn. France is defenitely up for choice (between the two) as the very first civilization to play (when first playing the mod. Mine was Cordoba btw)

 

[El Bogus]

I am hesitant to ask (because I do not have the option/skills to turn your imput into good work, but still) do you have information on what provinces in what timeframe would be candidates for a bonus to missionaries?

Why do you feel the need for additional/improved missionaries?
Let's compare the situation with Vanilla BTS:
There are only four major religions of which one comes very late into the game and is spread automatically in all of your cities. In BTS, there are seven. So, there will always be enough diplomatic partners for you, no matter which religion you choose (with the exception of Islam ofc).
The income of Holy Shrines is limited, so you can't max that out with missionaries. Additionally, it's impossible to control the catholic Holy Shrine (which is not a good game mechanic imo).
The automatic spread of religions is massively increased compared to BTS. So, while roleplaying (which is a big factor in RFC) you can pretend Irish monks have converted your pagan citizens when Catholicism is auto-spread.
The automatic spread of religions is getting an overhaul atm (if I'm correct) which will probably further improve the issue.
In conclusion, I don't think there have to be additional missionary mechanics. Imo let's just wait for and test the upcoming province-based religion spread.

 

[AbsintheRed]

And it never was so? Or why am i then cunfused about it? I wasnt yesterday when i noticed that hey you can build jewish but ....idk why i do have such memories?!

No, it was never that way.
But now I remembered an exploit for Judaism:
With the Arab UP it's possible to spread it into your newly acquired cities if that's your state religion.
That's not intentional, meant to fix it for a long time.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Why do you feel the need for additional/improved missionaries?
Let's compare the situation with Vanilla BTS:
There are only four major religions of which one comes very late into the game and is spread automatically in all of your cities. In BTS, there are seven. So, there will always be enough diplomatic partners for you, no matter which religion you choose (with the exception of Islam ofc).
The income of Holy Shrines is limited, so you can't max that out with missionaries. Additionally, it's impossible to control the catholic Holy Shrine (which is not a good game mechanic imo).
The automatic spread of religions is massively increased compared to BTS. So, while roleplaying (which is a big factor in RFC) you can pretend Irish monks have converted your pagan citizens when Catholicism is auto-spread.
The automatic spread of religions is getting an overhaul atm (if I'm correct) which will probably further improve the issue.
In conclusion, I don't think there have to be additional missionary mechanics. Imo let's just wait for and test the upcoming province-based religion spread.

Agree with everything here.

@Force44: I didn't mean the religion spread idea specifically.
I only meant that it might be good to have small province-specific bonuses in some places.

Sengoku has fixed cities, and has a similar mechanics.
A couple cities has preset buildings, which add a free promotion for some of the units built there. To represent the special training for monks for example.

In RFCE we can potentially have something like that, but for provinces.
It might be hard to add fitting bonuses though, as it has to remain both historical for a much longer time, and neutral enough as many different civs can control a given province.

 

[Force44]

about monks.

I don't think there is a need for additional/improved missionaries.

In fact I consider most of my ideas unelegant and/or (borderline) detrimental.

I pose them nonetheless because they fill a certain (as in perceived by me) void.
(I started a topic/thread on this once on the RFC_DoC-forum, but I think the subject was too abstract to gather much interest)

I have the perhaps tad bit vain hope (you will have to translate this from dutch into your native language on google translate to get the full meaning, there is no english expression which covers the meaning of 'ijdele hoop' exactly) that the input of other members on the forum will transform them into passable or even good ideas.

In this specific case (Irish missionaries as an improvement for a province) the things I aim for are:
Flavour
Historicity
Uniqueness
(an increase of) Agency

 

[El Bogus]

I thought so, Force44. I just don't think this flavour will be reached through missionary mechanics (wink wink nudge nudge).
What could be improved is the feeling that sometimes christianisation took a lot of effort and even violent "depaganising". I don't know how this could be done, though.
EDIT: Now, that I think of it, I have an idea about this: Spawn barbarians on religious spread in specific areas and timeframes (Pomerania before 1200, Lithuania before 1300, ...). Same goes for the removal of religions (Islam in Andalusia, ...).

 

[Force44]

. So, while roleplaying (which is a big factor in RFC) you can pretend Irish monks have converted your pagan citizens when Catholicism is auto-spread.

I concur. Imagination is a powerfull tool. Especially to have fun.

Personally I am a firm believer that a lot of the fun from imagination comes from the enforcement of your fantacies by agency.

Also a lack of imagination is (imho) what is keeping some things from being contemplated further.
This came to mind when I read about the contemplation concerning the absence of implementation of storms from a colonization mod. It would work for Colonization but not for RFCE because turns in Colonization represent a couple of days and in RFCE a couple of years.

For me that would be no problem at all. I imagine a turn to contain events that happened during a timeframe that is contained within those those three years of time. As opposed to during the entire three year timeframe.

(This ofc leaves unadressed that there may be a million other reasons not to implement it though.)

If absinthereds imagination encompassed my imagination he would not dismiss it outright for the reason he stated.

This is not a bad thing though. (I consider it even kind of a good thing in a way.) Having a different imagination and opinion about things leads to interesting and surprising solutions and options in the game/mod (things I would never have thought of). I value and appreciate those greatly. (In fact, interesting new and surprising things is what I hope to encounter in a mod.)

 

[Force44]

@ El Bogus
I already like your idea of relion spreading barbarians better than mine of Irish missionaries (if i have to choose between the two).

A famous missionary in the Netherlands is Bonifatius. In Dokkum he attempted to convert the pagan Frisians by cutting down their holy treehouse. (jk it was just a holy tree) When to his surprise and horror they got angry at him when he did this cutting down he tried to defend himself with his bible.

Want to guess how that turned out?

I'll give you a clue. In the Netherlands we don't have Spartans, we got Frisians.

On the other hand. I really value agency.

 

[Arcangelus]

@ Force44
ijdele hoop: The closest english expression would be "wishful thinking". In context, to wait for something that you don't really expect to become true but would like that happens. Or to be more technical: "use something pleasing to imagine (what you want to be true) as basis for beliefs and decisions instead of evidence, rationality or reality (what you should expect or how it actually is based on reality). To that I say:
Het is geen ijdele hoop. (No, I don't know dutch.)

@ El Bogus
The part about the inquisitions is interesting, but it's pretty much punishing further an action that is discouraged already. Using a religious prosecutor hurts your stability on the short run, making impractical multiple uses of it on the short term. Putting a barbarian spawn alongside it can be seen as a little too much. And is not like the barbarians can re-instate the religion in question, right? (not a rhetoric question). Of course, this ignores that the AI would be none the wiser about it.

BTW, for flavor it believe a few events for those places that had different "brands" of Christianity within the same denomination would work. Albeit, I must admit that for the periods where there is any civilization playable in those area there is not much. We have the Cathar (heretic) and Waldensians.
Now that I think about it, there is an elegant solution for the "orthodoxy doesn't spread enought" issue that doesn't mess with the spread mechanism itself. From what I see on the wiki, one of the main reasons for the Christianization of the Slavs is the translation of the bible and Liturgy to Slavonic. On the 9th century, characters like Saints Cyril and Methodius did their best to spread the religion on the people's own language (or the closest they could). As such, you could give events for the Byzantine player to help their efforts (with money, for instance) in exchange for a chance to spread the religions to those areas (or just plain grant them missionaries). You could even add an option to further support their efforts to extends their reach. Of course, this would mean that an inattentive or ineffective roman emperor would see Orthodoxy mostly stuck on its own empire (this can screw Kiev over) unless the spreed can happen anyway w/o support but slower or limited in scope (to the nations that actually need Orthodoxy for UHV).

 

[El Bogus]

The part about the inquisitions is interesting, but it's pretty much punishing further an action that is discouraged already. Using a religious prosecutor hurts your stability on the short run, making impractical multiple uses of it on the short term. Putting a barbarian spawn alongside it can be seen as a little too much. And is not like the barbarians can re-instate the religion in question, right? (not a rhetoric question). Of course, this ignores that the AI would be none the wiser about it.

I'd actually find this interesting. And to have more consequences when you purge the heathens feel good to me, too. But that could be my political views speaking.

BTW, for flavor it believe a few events for those places that had different "brands" of Christianity within the same denomination would work. Albeit, I must admit that for the periods where there is any civilization playable in those area there is not much. We have the Cathar (heretic) and Waldensians.

There were even crusades against these groups. (BTW the german word for heretic "Ketzer" originates from "Katharer" which is although greek for "the Pure".)
I don't know how much room we can grant these religious issues, though. Albeit being historic and also interesting these might get a bit too much.

 

[Panopticon]

I often see Catholic Bulgarian Empire. Anyone else?

 

[Force44]

I might have encountered it once or twice. It doesn't feel as very often to me. What do you consider often?

 

[DC123456789]

Yeah, Catholic Bulgaria is quite (too) common.

 

[El Bogus]

I think so, too.

 

[Swarbs]

Quite a few times tbh. I think Catholicism spreads quite frequently in Bulgaria so that triggers it.

I've seen Catholic Novgorod and Kiev as well on occasion, as they don't start with missionaries so Catholicism can get there first.