Suggestions for Piety start?

[Atinuviel]

I know it's neither the conventional nor the best strategy, but I thought it'd be interesting to play a game without a traditional or liberty opener.

I just finished an H-C-A game as Sweden in Immortal, and it was admittedly a very different and fun experience. I tried my hands at Piety, but I just see no redeeming values for making it work. Honor have a good opener that give cultures with barbarian killing and an early policy that gives happiness and culture easily.

Piety has nothing really to offer early. You don't get Temple until Philosophy, which means you don't get the other half of your opener until early-mid stage of your game. The other policies are all lackluster until later.

Any tips from experienced players?

 

[BruinBound]

It's pretty terrible. I was actually planning on doing a piety only start for my next Let's Play, so I did a little research and test games. Let me reiterate that it's terrible.

I am not a Piety expert however. If there are deity players out there that go strictly piety early and make it work, I'd love to hear their opinions.

This is what I have seen:

• It is very important that you actually found a religion. Even with a piety start, it is not always possible. Sometimes you have crappy pantheon choices and not a lot you can do. I'd say 30% of the games you won't get a religion. Those are going to be tough games.
• Most of the time your shrine is finished or close to finishing by the time you get the policy for quicker shrines.
• Mentioned it before, but there are not that many faith based pantheons. Tough to get a religion from two or three early shrines. Beelining a temple from philosophy is usually too late to have an impact.
• When you do found a religion, you want good beliefs. About half of the religions you get will be pretty poor to mediocre due to the AIs taking the good beliefs.
• To spread your religion and get the benefits, you need to go wide. This is much easier with Collective Rule. Going piety-only sets you back significantly to the point that its hard to get the religious buildings up while expanding and defending your empire.
• There is no culture, happiness, or growth bonuses from the piety policies. This is critical. Of course you can get a religion that makes up for some of them, but relying on a religion as substitution for these crucial game elements is a risk and a bit of a waste.

That being said, Reformation is completely awesome. If you do get full piety and get Jesuit Education, you will easily buy all your science buildings the same turn you get the technologies for them. There are a few others that are pretty good also, I'm sure enough has been said about Sacred Sites already.

The only realistic way to play Piety is to open with Liberty and get to Collective Rule, then go down Piety to reformation. Of course, you may be too late to get anything good, as deity AIs do like piety and do take a lot of the good reformation beliefs.

I feel like a lot of what a good religion does for you is just substitute what you are missing from not going Tradition or Liberty. Best case scenario, you are able to stay close to how the game would have gone with a real opening policy tree. Given the probability of a disastrous game happening from not getting a religion, getting a poor religion, or over-expanding with not a lot of protection and getting wiped-out by an AI, the high-risk low-reward structure of going Piety is tough to justify.

 

[Erneiz Hyde]

There's a guide here about the "Small Piety" strategy.

 

[stormtrooper412]

Piety is all kinds of bad. In the Arabia DCL I went DF + full Piety and it definitely felt underwhelming. Basically faster shrines and temples is a one-time boost because there's no later game religious buildings that you can build. Being the first to a religion meant I never had to use any Missionaries, it simply passively spread around and snowballed into the largest religion on the map, as seen in my screenie. It had also provided instant access to Unis, Schools and RLabs thanks to Jesuit Education.

The point is, while all of that sounds nice, my religion would have snowballed anyway because I had the spread enhancer out fairly quickly, DF + Mosques gave me a decent chunk without the bonus from Piety and the discount on faith-buying buildings seems useful but by the time you get to mass purchase, you'll have plenty anyway and the discount won't really make of a difference. So the Reformation is the best part of Piety by far, however it's not worth it by itself, unless you want to try out the Small Piety Strategy which is completely broken but amazingly effective

 

[adcarrymaokai]

Oddly enough, Piety become more and more effective as the game goes on, but it offers no early bonuses, which are so important to the game. Also, they should remove Religious Tolerance and maybe add a policy which gives 1 culture per shrine or 1 happiness per shrine, and 2 for temples to make it a fully competitive tree. The best way to go Piety is when you have a good faith pantheon.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

I have played with Piety at various difficulties and this is what i think of the tree

• Overall, it's the most versatile of the early trees as religion can be customised to serve all sort of games and there are reformation beliefs for all sort of games
• Even thought it's versatile and can help every game, there is no game where Piety will really shine
• As it's dependent to getting a religion, Piety is hard to use on higher difficulties (Deity and even Immortal) as AIs often get many religions founded before you. At those difficulties you need a faith Pantheon to ensure Religion and that somewhat defeats the purpose of the tree as it's best used to get a religion out of a useful non-faith pantheon
• It becomes better if you get a culture ruin in first 10 turns while researching Pottery. That way you can get a fast Shrine in capital. If you can get the +1 faith policy, 3 cities with Shrines fast and possibly become friend with a Religious CS you can often get a late Religion even without Faith Pantheon, but a late religion means missing on the Religious buildings that works great with Piety and there is a risk you won't get any religion at all. If you don't have a faith pantheon, it's especially important to get 1st or second pantheon cause you really don't want to loose 20 faith on pantheon
• When you say Piety does not offer culture/happiness, it's ignoring the religious buildings you get at a discount that gives you both (apart from Monasteries). But then again, you need to be able to grab those beliefs and that means faith pantheon
• Religious Tolerance is hands down the worst SP in the game and yes, it hurts to have the worst SP in an overall somewhat weak tree.
• Lots of Reformation beliefs don't give you full benefit early. One even start at industrial (to the Glory of God is great) but if you wait too long you risk loosing the good ones. That makes Piety an early tree that gives you benefits later unlike the other early trees wich help you immediately. Weird stuff there, i think i preferred when it wasn't available from the start (but then the opener was useless)

All in all, i don't think the tree is useless but it's definitely the hardest tree to get benefit from. It won't work out every game. If you can have faith Pantheon there is a better chance you can get some use out of Piety, but that defeats the purpose of several policies in the tree (how good is +1 faith from shrine when you have desert folklore). It could be used with some useful non faith pantheon (sun god, goddess of the hunt, god of the sea, messenger of gods, one of the culture pantheon) to salvage a religion out of them, but Piety alone won't do it. You would need fast 3 cities (and since the tree does not help, you need good production for settlers) and probably a nearby religious CS to befriend. Then, there are some specific games such as Piety small that can use Piety and religious diplomatic boost to salvage some crappy starts (tundra) into peaceful diplomatic victories or the Sacred Sites culture game that relies on fast religion, fast culture and quick expansion (very hard to impossible on Deity). That makes it very situational.

 

[consentient]

The two choices with Piety are either Small Piety, as mentioned before, or Rope-a-Dope Piety/War Piety, where you use Holy Warriors or other war-based religious tenets, or simply play nice and then get all aggressive, and treat it as Honor-lite. Both are fun, but it is true that Piety is less powerful than Honor, Tradition, etc.

 

[stormtrooper412]

The point is, it won't make a Bad Religion much better and it's not needed if you scored a Good Religion

 

[adcarrymaokai]

@ Bob Morane

When I say Piety gives no culture or happiness, I mean it gives no culture or happiness on its own. Being forced to always choose religious buildings is not exactly versatility or fun to me. I wat to play with different beliefs. Sure, you can get faith and culture and happiness out of religion, but that is also possible without Piety with a faith pantheon or a faith CS, and you still benefit from culture and happiness of other trees.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

Be careful that Mandate of Heavens does not reduce the cost of purchasing Holy Warriors!

When I say Piety gives no culture or happiness, I mean it gives no culture or happiness on its own. Being forced to always choose religious buildings is not exactly versatility or fun to me...

Agreed but Piety will help you get a Religion faster (even if only slightly) and give you a better chance to get those Pagodas, and buying them cheaper will make them available when you probably needs them most. True it's minor compared to other trees, but not totally useless.

The point is, it won't make a Bad Religion much better and it's not needed if you scored a Good Religion

But it can help you get a good religion as often founding a few turns earlier means 2-3 more beliefs still available.

I don't disagree that it's the weakest early tree. I just think it's not totally useless and can be used either for a change, or for some limited games that are not possible without.

 

[nickytootricky]

Small Piety is a really amazing strategy that more or less guarantees the win. There is culture in the Piety tree a bit later through holy sites. Yes, you'll go behind but the whole point of Small Piety is to go behind. Way behind. Then you catch up by about Modern/Atomic era anyway, by taking advantage of the discounts you get on science. If I wasn't going Small Piety, I'd prefer Tradition almost all the time.

Edit: and of course you have culture through Pagodas etc...I never suffered with gold or culture with Small Piety.

 

[beetle]

It is very important that you actually found a religion. Even with a piety start, it is not always possible. Sometimes you have crappy pantheon choices and not a lot you can do. I'd say 30% of the games you won't get a religion. Those are going to be tough games.

For sure, if I am going full piety and don't get a religion, that would be no fun at all to play out. With Tradition and Liberty, it seems to me that there is usually a religion left by the time of the closer. So is the trick to emphasis cultural-oriented religious benefits? So that the Piety closer and free GPr comes fast enough to found?

Most of the time your shrine is finished or close to finishing by the time you get the policy for quicker shrines.

Quicker shrines is the policy opener. BO is monument first, then scouts until opener.

Mentioned it before, but there are not that many faith based pantheons.

I don't understand this complaint, since there are nine of them (plus God King). With three shrines and the early +1 faith SP, even a weak faith pantheon should be enough to found.

When you do found a religion, you want good beliefs. About half of the religions you get will be pretty poor to mediocre due to the AIs taking the good beliefs.

Which follower beliefs do you think are of no or little value? And are there several, so you get stuck with at least one? Yes, I much prefer getting a religious building, but even when those are gone there are always a couple follower beliefs that I would characterize as “good”. (I think the weakest of the bunch is Liturgical Drama, but I have never been stuck with it.)

To spread your religion and get the benefits, you need to go wide.

I disagree with this as religion benefits your game no matter how many (or few) cities you have. Aside from CS quests, do you try and spread outside your cities? That has never worked for me.

This is much easier with Collective Rule.

But that severely delays getting your reformation belief, and then also the free GPr. I don't see how this could be worth it.

There is no culture, happiness, or growth bonuses from the piety policies. This is critical.

I agree with you here. Even honor has perks for culture and happiness.

That being said, Reformation is completely awesome. If you do get full piety and get Jesuit Education, you will easily buy all your science buildings the same turn you get the technologies for them. There are a few others that are pretty good also, I'm sure enough has been said about Sacred Sites already.

I feel like To the Glory of God and Jesuit Education are the only really strong Reformations beliefs. (But one or the other or both are usually available.) Absent a very early tourism win, is Sacred Sites all that useful?

The only realistic way to play Piety is to open with Liberty and get to Collective Rule, then go down Piety to reformation. Of course, you may be too late to get anything good, as deity AIs do like piety and do take a lot of the good reformation beliefs.

Missing out on the best reformation beliefs is only a problem because or your detour with Liberty!

Best case scenario, you are able to stay close to how the game would have gone with a real opening policy tree.

You are on the mark there! I understand how Honor can be played competitively, but really I don't think the same can be said for Piety. The Small Piety strategy seems pretty stuck to a diplo win (not that hard anyway). Honor opener is not just for domination runs, and of course Tradition and Liberty work for any VC. I would love to be convinced that Piety has some of that flexibility.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

i wouldnt particularly look at piety like a tree i need to complete unless im going for something very specific (like small piety or SS). but for a non-Trad/Lib game, i'd probably open Honor, then 2 into Piety for Mandate of Heaven and back to Honor to finish. outside of Mandate (because its early) i wouldnt put anymore in since im not trying for Reformation, unless i change my mind later on it. and it might help me get to founding/enhancing quicker, plus reduced costs on faith buildings, etc. since it is only 2 policies ultimately, i dont feel like i hitched my wagon to a one-trick idea. still not optimal, but MoH is the only reason i'd dip into it if im not planning on small piety/SS strategy.

 

[joncnunn]

Moderator Action: BNW prefix added

 

[Light Cleric]

There's a guide here about the "Small Piety" strategy.

The thing about "small piety" is it, unintentionally or not, abused the living hell out of the overflow bug which is now fixed, not to mention being kinda luck based.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

The thing about "small piety" is it, unintentionally or not, abused the living hell out of the overflow bug which is now fixed, not to mention being kinda luck based.

Yup. Good luck trying to win vs a runaway Alex with his religion, 50-city empire, and every CS.

 

[IronfighterXXX]

The thing about "small piety" is it, unintentionally or not, abused the living hell out of the overflow bug which is now fixed, not to mention being kinda luck based.

The overflow bug still exist, it's just capped; without it and if AI actually spend theirs 10k + gold on CSs instead of sitting on it the whole ''small piety strategy" would land in trash.

 

[Erneiz Hyde]

I don't think it "abused the living hell out of it". Abuse would be more like when you intentionally leave a whole branch of the tech tree for late era Scientists to bulb into the future tech twice over like the original poster who brought it to light demonstrated back then. Small Piety encourages you to actually research every single tech in Medieval and Renaissance to maximize your duration in those eras so your religion benefit more, so there is little to no window when you can abuse the bug.

And AI actually spending their cheat gold would make any strategy down the bin anyways.

 

[Light Cleric]

I don't think it "abused the living hell out of it". Abuse would be more like when you intentionally leave a whole branch of the tech tree for late era Scientists to bulb into the future tech twice over like the original poster who brought it to light demonstrated back then. Small Piety encourages you to actually research every single tech in Medieval and Renaissance to maximize your duration in those eras so your religion benefit more, so there is little to no window when you can abuse the bug.

And AI actually spending their cheat gold would make any strategy down the bin anyways.

When you're purposely 15-25 techs behind, the AIs all have those techs researched(reducing the cost) and you have Scholars in Residence(further reducing the cost) it's basically impossible not to, which is why I also said it could be unintentional. Every scientist is going to cause the bug to trigger.

And yes, there were fewer viable strategies when the AI actually spent its cheatgold in G&K but there was still some variety. It just kept some strategies honest. I don't know why they decided to revert so many of the changes in BNW that the G&K fall patch made, a lot of them were for the better.

 

[BruinBound]

I admit I never heard of "small-piety". Everything I knew of religion was to go wide so you can exert more pressure and take advantage of the beliefs that give you more gold/ culture/ etc for followers of your religion and to take advantage of the religious buildings you can buy. That is why when I go piety, those are the beliefs I think are top-tier.

I haven't read through the strategy yet, nor have I attempted it. To be fair, I won't comment until I do that. However, the author himself said he re-rolls if he doesn't get a start with a strong pantheon option. It sounds consistent with what I said: it's a risk, and at best only substitutes for what you could have done going with a different opener.

It is interesting though, looking forward to trying new things! Also, I know it may be arrogant to ask so I apologize in advance, but is there a more concise write-up for small piety that covers the basic ideas? Obviously I'd read the whole thing before trying, but for the sake of this conversation it would be helpful.

Quicker shrines is the policy opener. BO is monument first, then scouts until opener.

I'm skeptical of this. Delaying the shrine until you get the opener seems like a risk without a culture ruin. You can get stuck in that trap where you keep missing the next pantheon by a few turns and hugely delay a chance at a religion. Every turn seems to matter when going for a strong early religion, I think you need to build the shrine as soon as possible.

I don't understand this complaint, since there are nine of them (plus God King). With three shrines and the early +1 faith SP, even a weak faith pantheon should be enough to found.

We seem to have different experiences when it comes to founding religions. I would say to be 80% confident of getting a religion you would need the appropriate starts for Desert Folklore, Dance of the Aurora, Stone Circles, Tears of the Gods or One With Nature. The rest can certainly be done but you need to have enough of the those resources. I know the list sounds like a lot but more games that not I have the regular plantation or trapping luxuries that don't help.

I disagree with this as religion benefits your game no matter how many (or few) cities you have. Aside from CS quests, do you try and spread outside your cities? That has never worked for me.

If you go wide then your cities exert a fair amount of pressure and can convert a lot of the neighboring CS's on their own. With something like Church Property, you can can boost your early culture by about 40%. My most successful piety game I actually filled out rationalism before modern era because of this policy. I believe I had 5 CS's following my religion and my neighbor AI didnt found a religion until late so I had a foothold in a few of their cities.

I feel like To the Glory of God and Jesuit Education are the only really strong Reformations beliefs. (But one or the other or both are usually available.) Absent a very early tourism win, is Sacred Sites all that useful?

Charitable Missions is great for Diplomatic, Sacred Sites for Tourism, Jesuit Education/ Glory of God for anything... and maybe Religious Fervor for domination? I think all of these are strong based on the game you are playing.

Missing out on the best reformation beliefs is only a problem because or your detour with Liberty!

I think we are saying the same thing here. If you go Piety only, you get a good reformation belief but stunt your growth/ expansion. If you mix in liberty/tradition for growth, you risk losing a good reformation belief.