Suggestions

[coko]

"Those that fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it."
Winston Churchill

Sometimes it is still important to add things that disgust you, so that others can share in your disgust from them, and learn.

However saying that, it is your mod, and the point is this is your opinion and prespective on something. Everyone should take option 2 if that is their wish.

 

[Dale]

I changed my post to something more constructive.

 

[Kalimakhus]

Too late Dale, I got it all delivered to my mail box. I just think option #3 was a little harsh though it is a good advice in general. However I like your constructive post more.

By the way, while I respect your opinion and your right to shape the mod eventually in the way that agrees with your principals, I for myself has nothing against introducing PoWs into the mod in some way or another. It would complicate things for Germany in particular, but I think Germany actually need things to get a little complicated for it.

Still I am not reopening the subject as you made it clear enough that your decision is final. I just liked to state my opinion which doesn't mean by any way that I disgust the atrocities practiced in PoWs camps during WWII any less than you. I disgust targeting civilians or blind bombardment of cities as well. Still I see them all as facts of war that is in itself the source of many evils.

 

[Dale]

I just fail to see how adding POW's to the mod would add to the gameplay. Yes it's realistic, but as I see it it can only add more micro-management which I'm sure we all agree is a drain on the fun factor.

That's the key, balance fun with history. I will not lower fun just to increase history.

If there's a way to add POW's in a fun and creative way, without adding masses of micro-management, then I'll listen to the idea.

Also note, I am not dismissing all ideas presented with only my goals in mind. Quite a number of ideas given by other fans of the mod have made it in (with even more still being added), even though I personally may not agree. However, they do increase the fun factor whilst maintaining or increasing the history aspect. But to have the comment of nemt's thrown in my face that I'm biased and wish to forget history was an insult to me.

I have to balance not only fun and history, but also political correctness, sympathies and humanity factors as well. Just to give you some examples with the POW concept in mind:
Is "disbanding" POW units in a city renamed Treblinka an insult to the families who lost family members there?
Is "fortifying" POW units in Warsaw insulting to families who were caught in the ghetto?
Is the Japanese player who "disbands" Chinese POW's doing so in repetition of the genocide practiced during the war?

You should get my point.

 

[wotan321]

The old South American Inca/Maya scenario in one of the earlier xpacks had human sacrifice, and some special building for doing the deed. Should we adapt that here, have death camps, etc?

In my humble opinion, nope.

If you want to mod that in at home, or POWs, then do so. But Dale is responsible for creating a mod that is historical, fun, and not offensive. I think we stretch far enough when we make "War-games", making killing and bombing and starving and all that into a game. No, I am no saint, and YES, I did suggest POWs earlier in a post, but I thought about it, and have read many discussions on the ethics required to make games, and I was wrong. I may put POWs in my mod at home, but I don't think Dale should here. If a bunch of players want to work together to adapt this Mod to be more realistic, then they need to get together to do it. But that isn't Dale's job, not the one he signed on with Firaxis to do.

 

[GarretSidzaka]

good points dale

 

[nemt]

I never suggested POWs be put in the game, I just said your flat out opposition to anything slightly offensive and brazen america/uk boosting are disappointing. That being said, I don't see why having a POW Camp city improvement couldn't be done in an effective way.

and making the great artists camp songs instead of actual artists? That's just weak.

If I want to pay reverence to victims of the camps (camps which had little or nothing to do with the actual war), I'll visit a memorial - in the mod, I'd really just prefer history.

 

[Dale]

My apologies about the POW's. I did think it was yourself who suggested it. What affects do you see a POW camp providing? +production, -happiness maybe?

I would like to ask where (except for the opening video) there is US/UK boosting in the mod? If those teams are out of balance then they need to be balanced. But unless you tell me where the in-balance is, I can't fix it.

Great artist songs, it's just a name.

As for my opposition to anything "slightly offensive":
"Asian Holocaust" - more horrific than Nazi Holocaust, yet easier to forget: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes
"Burma Railway" - A number of my family members died building this for the Japanese: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Railway
"Kokoda Trail" - My wife's Pa was a medic on the trail, and tells stories of how the Japanese treated the Papuans and the conditions left after the Japanese were beaten back: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kokoda_Track_Campaign
This is all aside from the usual Nazi stuff.

So NEVER ridicule my opposition of "slightly offensive" stuff. My family members died to ensure I wouldn't suffer under those "slightly offensive" conditions. I WILL respect them for it.

 

[Peter1501]

Hi, Dale!

I would suggest to make also marines and paratroopers stronger during gameplay, just like with the infantry they could get strength 20 with better technologies, because in my opinion these 2 are really interesting units, which become kind of useless in the late-game!

Otherwise, really good mod!

 

[nemt]

and what of all the horrors unleashed on the world by the allies, Dale?

Did you forget about your good friends the Soviets? They had a great track record with POWs and death camps, didn't they?



Please keep your personal bias and politics out of the game, it makes it much less enjoyable.


EDIT: To clarify, I love Road to War, I think it's the best scenario/mod for Civ 4, I just wish Dale wouldn't let his personal thoughts hold it back from being even better.

 

[Dale]

and what of all the horrors unleashed on the world by the allies, Dale?

Did you forget about your good friends the Soviets? They had a great track record with POWs and death camps, didn't they?

Let's not go down this path. There's enough discussion in the general forum as to the horrors of the war.

And just an FYI, Australia never allied with USSR, or were friendly with them during the war. The connection was through the Commonwealth.

Please keep your personal bias and politics out of the game, it makes it much less enjoyable.

And feel free to keep your comments about them to yourself. Aside from voicing my personal opinion, I have also voiced my game designer opinion. I fail to see any gameplay benefit from adding certain suggestions, and no one has yet shown a way it will add to the game without detracting from anything else already in it.

EDIT: To clarify, I love Road to War, I think it's the best scenario/mod for Civ 4, I just wish Dale wouldn't let his personal thoughts hold it back from being even better.

Here's the funny thing. The entire mod is my personal opinion. It's my opinion on how WW2 should be represented in Civ4.

 

[nemt]

Let's pretend slave/pow labor played no part in wartime production, and the nazis were the only war criminals.

 

[Dale]

Facists already get the "Forced Labour" civic which allows whipping of citizens.

 

[Samael]

So Canadian and Scottish soldiers will still be labeled as 'English Infantry' then?
And there can be no event-based game that doesn't have set deadlines to war?

 

[Tboy]

and what of all the horrors unleashed on the world by the allies, Dale?

Did you forget about your good friends the Soviets? They had a great track record with POWs and death camps, didn't they?



Please keep your personal bias and politics out of the game, it makes it much less enjoyable.


EDIT: To clarify, I love Road to War, I think it's the best scenario/mod for Civ 4, I just wish Dale wouldn't let his personal thoughts hold it back from being even better.

I'd just like to point out that the Western Allies alliance with the Soviet Union was more out of trying to defeat Hitler than of any real friendship - even before WWII, there was widespread fear of the spread of communism, and Hitler's anti-communist stance was one of the reasons why it took so long for the Allies to stand up to him.

As for the mod, nemt, at the end of the day if you don't like Dale's decisions you can always change the mod yourself.

And Dale, I apologise for any offense I may have caused in the suggestion of PoWs - I can assure you I meant none.

 

[Tboy]

So Canadian and Scottish soldiers will still be labeled as 'English Infantry' then?
And there can be no event-based game that doesn't have set deadlines to war?

This reminds me of the England/Britain debate eternally circulating through the RFC forum...

It probably would be better to lable the troops 'British', but the only word that would cover all possibilities would be 'Commonwealth'.

As for the events, the best way to work that would probably be open play with the AI having programmed aggression against historical targets (e.g. the Soviet Union would be programmed to desire Poland, the Baltic states, East Balkans and Finland, and possibly also Germany). But I can't think of any way to incorporate dates into that, though it could be possible.

 

[Kalimakhus]

And there can be no event-based game that doesn't have set deadlines to war?

There are three modes of play in the mod. One with historic events at their proper time. Second with historic events at somewhat random time. The third is an open play mode without historic events at all.

I am not sure if you are already aware of that. If so you may tell us what exactly you mean by "no event-based game".

 

[Samael]

It probably would be better to lable the troops 'British', but the only word that would cover all possibilities would be 'Commonwealth'.

That's what I've been trying to say. I don't think this is quite the same thing as the RFC complaint; calling England 'Britain' in the beginning doesn't make sense, since the regions were not united but calling Britain 'England' would be like calling Western Europe 'France' or the United States 'New York'.
However, here the nation is called the UK - not England, not Scotland, not Canada, not any one of the countries specifically, but the UK and it represents the Commonwealth and it's armies. This is like the calling Britain 'England' issue - when the Civ represents more then one region, it feels unfair to ignore the contributions made by the other regions, which is why I opt for Commonwealth Infantry (and preferably 'Early Commonwealth Infantry' as opposed to 'Commonwealth early infantry' - the lack of capitalization of the titles and order just seems odd to me).

As for the events, the best way to work that would probably be open play with the AI having programmed aggression against historical targets (e.g. the Soviet Union would be programmed to desire Poland, the Baltic states, East Balkans and Finland, and possibly also Germany). But I can't think of any way to incorporate dates into that, though it could be possible.

Again, this pretty much hit the nail on the head. What I had hoped to see was no definitive times (I'm reasonably happy with the start date being scripted, but what if I'm ready to go before then? Scripted end-dates, on the other hand, even if it lies at a 'random date around the time' irritate me) but to keep events such as the spawn of Vichy France and further events (and quests) if they are added into the game. With certain civs being at odds with each other and wanting their land, it pushes things in the direction they went but isn't too forceful, giving a bit more control over your own destiny.
In the case of the Soviet Union wanting German land, would it be possible to attach it to an event? 'Molotov-Ribbentrop pact broken' at a set time, major diplomatic penalties between Soviets and Germans, Soviets want German land, Germans want Soviet land? Would that work?

Other suggestions would be perhaps adding a few additional items on the tech tree - buildings and bonuses unlocked for research? For instance, Medical Service might provide an NHS national wonder or give a health bonus and Household Goods might give a happiness bonus, increase happiness for Goods Factories, make Goods Factories produce some kind of economic bonus, or something? I've just never liked to see an 'empty tech'. Just a thought.

 

[Tboy]

Other suggestions would be perhaps adding a few additional items on the tech tree - buildings and bonuses unlocked for research? For instance, Medical Service might provide an NHS national wonder or give a health bonus and Household Goods might give a happiness bonus, increase happiness for Goods Factories, make Goods Factories produce some kind of economic bonus, or something? I've just never liked to see an 'empty tech'. Just a thought.

That would be a good idea - since these technologies in reality did lead to greater prosperity, and since this scenario does extend into the early Cold War (note the lasting until 1951 and the Cold War Awareness tech) then it would be appropriate to have one or two civilian wonders. Possibly a national wonder available to all nations like the 'National Health Service' wonder you suggested, giving something like +1 health and +1 happiness in all cities (the NHS in reality made people a lot happier as well as healthy). Some other oppurtunities for civilian development would be good as well - not so big as to detract from the main, war part of the mod, but as an added feature.

 

[PinkPallin]

This could be a nice add-on to RTW:
the Partisan Mod for BTS. Of course with a few tweaks.

You can’t build this Unit but after you have researched rifling you will get a certain amount of Partisan Units when the enemy captures one of your cities. The same works with enemy cities if the AI has the rifling tech.
The amount of Partisans in the city radius depends on the size of the captured city, if the original city owner has the Nationhood Civic (= more Partisans) and for balancing issues if the new owner is stronger or weaker than the former owner (a weaker former owner will also get more Partisans).
Partisans prefer to “spawn” on tiles with higher defence like hills, forest/jungle and forts if they are not occupied by enemy units, but it's still random.
When a Partisan Unit spawn it will automatically damage up to five random enemy units within its range (range = 1; damage per enemy unit = 15-30% but they can’t kill enemies with this attack).