Sumer - CBP Compatable Custom Civs
- Thread starter Sun Pope
- Start date
Not much to test right now, the ziggurat is fairly broken and the UA is missing an element. Stay tuned however, hopefully an update comes soon.
Sun Pope
Warlord
Yeah haha, sorry about the week of absence. I'm most likely going to work on it tomorrow and sunday, so I'll have a working (ish) version we can actually test soon
Sun Pope
Warlord
Alright, some changes I've made for the next version so you guys can play around with it more while i fix some clarity issues
1. I've condensed the list of Patrons down to include 15 or so working ones to try out while I get some of the other ones online. I'll post a full list of those when I release the new alpha.
2. The UA now spawns a worker in the capital instead of where the city is built. I'm not going to keep it this way, but until I fix some of the other issues I'll leave it like that. The UA text should say exactly what it does.
3. Icon/Leader Scene fixed to be Neb II. DoM I'm working on still (apparently the map is the wrong size for normal games), so it is just the scenario screen for WotAW
4. There was a bug where if the AI Sumer built a Ziggurat, it would prompt the player to select a patron and upon doing so, break the next turn button. I'm pretty positive I fixed it by adding a line that basically only opens the window if your civ tag matches sumer.
Known issues that haven't been fixed but I plan on working on ASAP:
--Finishing two or more Zig's at the same time only lets you pick one patron, and it replaces the Zig in those cities
--Civilopedia is still pretty much empty, and can cause other entries in the base game to be wonky
--Advanced settlers (pioneers, etc) only give the regular amount of pop in their era. I've located the issue, but I need to figure out which method to invoke to add population instead of set it to a constant value after founding
--The worker thing, I know (kinda) how to fix it but its not game breaking so its down the list
--Potential AI bugs. I'm curious to see how he selects patrons, though it will most likely be at random as I've done nothing to indicate to the AI which ones should be chosen. If you can, play some games against sumer and check what buildings they have in the cities
Some things I plan to do in the future, after these problems are fixed:
--Clean up the Patrons and balance them more, potentially add a handful more (I want a few more that affect happiness and some that have specialists/GW slots)
--Custom Leader Icon??? Might recolour Neb and flip him over the Y axis and stuff just to make the UI/EUI more clear as having both babylon and sumer in the game together gets annoying
I'm pretty close to wrapping it up to where it doesn't have any major issues, and I've played a few games all the way through as them and didn't run into any problems. I'm just going to clean up UI descriptions and names regarding patrons before I release ver0.07 (huehue) to you guys. This should be the last alpha before we go to Beta, and I'm gonna try and only have 2 different betas before the first full version is released. I'm giving myself til May 1st to have this guy ready to rock, and over the summer i should have way more time on my hands to do another one if we want as I'll be on University Break.
spoiler for a glimpse of me almost getting ahead of myself
1. I've condensed the list of Patrons down to include 15 or so working ones to try out while I get some of the other ones online. I'll post a full list of those when I release the new alpha.
2. The UA now spawns a worker in the capital instead of where the city is built. I'm not going to keep it this way, but until I fix some of the other issues I'll leave it like that. The UA text should say exactly what it does.
3. Icon/Leader Scene fixed to be Neb II. DoM I'm working on still (apparently the map is the wrong size for normal games), so it is just the scenario screen for WotAW
4. There was a bug where if the AI Sumer built a Ziggurat, it would prompt the player to select a patron and upon doing so, break the next turn button. I'm pretty positive I fixed it by adding a line that basically only opens the window if your civ tag matches sumer.
Known issues that haven't been fixed but I plan on working on ASAP:
--Finishing two or more Zig's at the same time only lets you pick one patron, and it replaces the Zig in those cities
--Civilopedia is still pretty much empty, and can cause other entries in the base game to be wonky
--Advanced settlers (pioneers, etc) only give the regular amount of pop in their era. I've located the issue, but I need to figure out which method to invoke to add population instead of set it to a constant value after founding
--The worker thing, I know (kinda) how to fix it but its not game breaking so its down the list
--Potential AI bugs. I'm curious to see how he selects patrons, though it will most likely be at random as I've done nothing to indicate to the AI which ones should be chosen. If you can, play some games against sumer and check what buildings they have in the cities
Some things I plan to do in the future, after these problems are fixed:
--Clean up the Patrons and balance them more, potentially add a handful more (I want a few more that affect happiness and some that have specialists/GW slots)
--Custom Leader Icon??? Might recolour Neb and flip him over the Y axis and stuff just to make the UI/EUI more clear as having both babylon and sumer in the game together gets annoying
I'm pretty close to wrapping it up to where it doesn't have any major issues, and I've played a few games all the way through as them and didn't run into any problems. I'm just going to clean up UI descriptions and names regarding patrons before I release ver0.07 (huehue) to you guys. This should be the last alpha before we go to Beta, and I'm gonna try and only have 2 different betas before the first full version is released. I'm giving myself til May 1st to have this guy ready to rock, and over the summer i should have way more time on my hands to do another one if we want as I'll be on University Break.
spoiler for a glimpse of me almost getting ahead of myself
Spoiler :
Sun Pope
Warlord
Spoiler :
and the the Mali are basically Songhai before Songhai overthrew them. The new version should be up in a few hours, gonna give it one last playthrough to about the renaissance era
Spoiler :
The new version should be up in a few hours, gonna give it one last playthrough to about the renaissance era
Spoiler :
ExpiredReign
Deity
My 2 cents worth --- go for Australia first. The Colonial Legacies version is okay, in fact all of their work is very slick and polished stuff but their Australian UA/UU are IMHO just terrible. Sorry guys if you read this.
I'd bend over backwards to help out with this if you go that direction.
I'd bend over backwards to help out with this if you go that direction.
Sun Pope
Warlord
Spoiler :
Well, my intention was for people to PM me about it, if you read the original post heheh.
ALSO:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8q9e7jj7j1p19bm/Sumer - CBP Extension Civs (v0.07).zip?dl=0
Just got done playing them, and another game against them. I forgot to write down which Patrons are in the game, and what they do, but I'll play again in a bit after I eat dinner and edit this post with that info. All I really remember is that Erishkigal is in there, but doesn't do anything yet (her description simply says...Description). The rest should do what they say.
-Pope
You can't honestly expect me to read what you're writing, can you?
Anyways I'll give the old Gilgamesh a spin.
The UA feels like it might be slightly too powerful.
I really like how it turns out (maybe make the worker spawn in the settled city instead of next to the capital would be better however), but it is really powerful early on, and doesn't really drop steam until you hit the renaissance era. Not really sure what to adjust however.
The Patron deities needs a lot of work, some of them are just pretty awful, while others are crazy, I mean I'm purposely avoiding the one that gives you a scientist +2 flat science and -25% illiteracy, not actually sure you want to stick unhappiness reduction on the buildings at all as it might mess with the balance of the normal buildings (not really sure how the math adds up however).
Other than that my go-to one was probably the +4 hammers +engineer, not sure if it is overtuned or if the other ones are just too situational.
I really like how it turns out (maybe make the worker spawn in the settled city instead of next to the capital would be better however), but it is really powerful early on, and doesn't really drop steam until you hit the renaissance era. Not really sure what to adjust however.
The Patron deities needs a lot of work, some of them are just pretty awful, while others are crazy, I mean I'm purposely avoiding the one that gives you a scientist +2 flat science and -25% illiteracy, not actually sure you want to stick unhappiness reduction on the buildings at all as it might mess with the balance of the normal buildings (not really sure how the math adds up however).
Other than that my go-to one was probably the +4 hammers +engineer, not sure if it is overtuned or if the other ones are just too situational.
Sun Pope
Warlord
Yes, worker will be fixed to spawn at the city founded in the future. As for balancing the UA, is it the specialists or the extra pop/worker combo that's too strong? A free worker at the beginning of the game is really strong by itself, so maybe only the capital could spawn one. If the specialists are too stronk, perhaps +1P for each instead of +2
True, the Patrons are pretty wacky in terms of balance. Is the +2 Science and illiteracy modifier too much? Should that one just have the Science Slot? I know since the science rework flat science is pretty OP, so i made it 2 instead of 4 like the Gold, Culture, and Hammer equivalents.
Should I buff the numbers on the situational gods? I.E. the Cattle/Sheep/Bison God can go up from +2 Culture on these to like +6 or something insane since it's so situational.
Also, the river god giving 1F per two river tiles (Enbilulu I think), I'm thinking about making it 1->1, which is pretty similar to the floating gardens/tabya.
EDIT: Should we focus on toning down the already strong patrons or should we buff the useless ones, or find a middle ground from where they are now? Can you think of any god that seems pretty balanced as a UB that we can shoot to match in power?
I'm not really sure. The first part is pretty strong but it obviously falls off as soon as you stop settling cities (which is fine). The specialist part is clearly weaker than the Korean UA, which leads me to believe that it should be fine, I'm just not certain that it is.
I think we should probably skip the % happiness mods like the illiteracy and the crime reduction.
I don't necessarily think this one is bad, but it seems kinda weirdly designed, why is it Cattle Sheep and Bison instead of Cattle Sheep and Horses?
I mean it's called god of livestock(right?) and Bison is definitely not one of those.
Other than that I'm kinda weirded out by the one boosting Wine and Incense being like twice as strong as the other one buffing luxuries, I know that one only boosts two different luxuries, but with the nature of the building and how luxuries are distributed with More Luxuries, it doesn't really matter.
I don't think I've access to this one.
Not exactly sure how to balance it either, 1F per river tile doesn't seem that broken. I mean both the Tabya and the Floating Gardens have other benefits besides their river boosts, while the Ziggurat's strength is in the massive flexibility.
Somewhere in between, probably. Kinda hard to tell really, even the strongest ones aren't necessarily stronger than really strong UBs, but the added flexibility should probably count for something.
Sun Pope
Warlord
From my playing, it didn't feel too OP all together, and if anything it was the early workers that pushed me ahead too much. That's about 13 turns of production you can save yourself at the start of the game, and at your third city you really have an excess of workers.
Alright, I was playing around with that to see how it worked mainly. I'm not too attached to it
Well, my thought process was that livestock meant it would affect animals that are used mainly for food (in hindsight, deer fits that category as well), but that's not what Livestock means, and I didn't realise it until you pointed it out. I might change Bison to Horses or just drop it altogether, as I'm not sure horses count as livestock (is there an expert present?) Either way, you're right about the bison thing
The Incense and Wine thing is because the normal temple already buffs wine and incense, so it just stacks with that (unless a recent patch changed it since February)
Hm, I'll check it out. It should be in the game, but perhaps I missed that one.
My thoughts exactly. I think the strongest ones are okay, and we should buff the weaker ones to be on their level. Even with the optimal Patron in each city, the Ziggurats would only be as strong as or less strong than other UB's in CBP. And while most of the patrons themselves ARE kinda boring, I think the part that makes Sumer's UB interesting is that you get to customise each city (to an extent).
EDIT: Sorry ExpiredReign, I somehow missed your reply. Australia too is my first pick, simply because the CL version already has an interesting, strong UA and a Good UU (the digger) that can easily be buffed and changed for CBP. Plus, it has all the artwork (AND AN ANIMATED LEADER SCENE?!?! X0 )
Having it affect all pasture-resources would feel kinda consistent, people do eat horses but as far as terminology goes I don't know if they would be considered livestock.
Main difference between Horses, Sheep and Cattle contra Bison and Deer is that the first category are domesticated animals, the second aren't. That might actually be the definition of livestock when I come to think about it.
Doesn't exactly matter, fact is if a boost to for example wine is a lot stronger than a boost to for example furs, the few times you get wine assigned as a monopoly-resource you're going to have a huge advantage.
Unless I'm mistaken the +2C +2G were in addition to the yields already present on the Temple, right?
Not saying that this should be a thing, but if for example you had one patron deity provide you +1 culture to every river tile, that would imho be fine as the Tabya also provides you with a +10% bonus when building buildings as well as some base production (+3).
Forgot to mention this earlier but I'm really not a fan of the bonus to marshes Ziggurat, Marshes are designed to get replaced with improvements later on and automated workers drain them.
Sun Pope
Warlord
No, it should be +2C and G total
agreed
Well the idea behind the marsh god is that it gives extra food on marshes. as well as culture, to prompt the player to not get rid of marshes
In that case that should probably be cleared out. I mean the standard +1C and +1G on wine from temples are not mentioned on all other patrons
Yeah I could see that, I'm just not sure if it actually works.
Sun Pope
Warlord
The Ziggurat description should say something like "On top of the usual bonuses a temple provides, the ziggurat allows you to select a patron deity to further customise this city." If it doesn't, I'll change it so it does because all zigs give +2 Faith, +1C/G on Wine/Incense, and the patron bonus
I dunno what you mean by works. It makes marshes have a total of 4food/3culture which is pretty good for any tile besides GP tiles. I'm considering changing it to 5food/4Culture total as well (plus...you dont have to pick this one if you dont like it or plan on getting rid of marshes)
I've done a few AI only games with sumer and have concluded that they dominate way too hard early game, and usually snowball hard too. I think the extra workers need to be nerfed a bit as they always end up with way more improved tiles than any other civ
That's not what I meant, I mean if the base building claims to give +1 C/G and the patron god claims to add +2 C/G, you would expect the final sum to be +3 C/G.
Automated workers automatically draining marches to build improvements as well as improvements continuing to scale as the game goes on.
That makes no sense, the AI starts with like 2 workers already, another one shouldn't even help them.
I kinda think the main culprit is the fact that tradition essentially gives you +12 production from specialists, which is kinda heavy. Maybe we could put some limit on the specialist-production somehow, let it provide +0 in ancient era +1 in classical +2 in medieval and then stay at +2. Gated power.
Sun Pope
Warlord
Well I'll make the incense and wine god more clear somehow, rather than scrap it for an easily fixed clarity issue.
Automated workers...i had no idea people used those. But I guess I see your point. I'm not gonna get rid of it still, because there may be a time when you really want it and its not like you're forced to choose it every game
You think so? I suppose that could be the case too. I wish I had a screenshot of the game when i ended it in classical because Gilgamesh had 6 cities with almost every improvable tile improved where everyone else had half the population and pretty much only improvements in the capital.
