epicivfreak

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Oh...
BTW, Vox Populi is best played at Marathon speed IMO. So if you add your previous Saga Speed, it would probably be even better as a starting point, IMO.
 

DImensiondog

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Oh...
BTW, Vox Populi is best played at Marathon speed IMO. So if you add your previous Saga Speed, it would probably be even better as a starting point, IMO.
IMO it’s clearly made for quick and standard. Nothing about it says long games to me.
 

DImensiondog

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Apr 12, 2021
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I agree with most of your points except 8, 9, 10 and 12 and 11 is already known( not sure if intentional or not)
 

epicivfreak

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I agree with most of your points except 8, 9, 10 and 12 and 11 is already known( not sure if intentional or not)
Just curious why you'd be against 12?
I've always felt that too many buildings/wonders are always available to build, so you've got an overabundance of options.
 

UncivilizedGuy

The Village Idiot
Joined
May 24, 2012
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928
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Land of the Lost
I’m playing on a Huge map with Epic speed on a Perfect World mapscript as Hyksos

1. I think removing the option of giving +1 population from nomadic huts would be a good idea. Adding additional population in the Lithic Era seems like a bad idea.
2. Defense on all flat land tiles should be 0, just like grasslands, because there’s a clear line of sight. Hills should have a lower defense than forest, but higher than flat land tiles, say +15. A -15% defense penalty for Marsh seems irrational to me. It’s realistically just as defensible as forest or maybe hills to me.
3. I hated when Civ4 added animals as a concept, so naturally I don’t like seeing them here either. If you want to give unique units to the barbarians, do that, because that’s fine, but seeing a Barbarian Wolf for example, attacking my city is just so silly & completely throws immersion out the window.
4. Hunters are able to explore far too much terrain early on, so I’d recommend dropping the defense from 5 to 1 or 2. They’ll die often then & exploration should be slowed. The only other options I see are either limiting how far from the city a unit can travel (there’s a Civ4 mod that did this, I think the option was called Limited Movement), or implementing some sort of Tile Attrition that damages the units so they absolutely have to return to your territory to heal periodically. Maybe both.
5. Adding the concept of gaining experience by exploring (from Vox Populi) would be nice, I’m missing that. It gives you another reason to go out & explore, instead of going total-turtle in your one city early on, which is too beneficial. It would also go well in combination with #4 above, in that if the Hunter is able to gain enough experience, it could be promoted to the point where it’s defense is enough to survive longer stretches outside of your territory.
6. Getting free Gatherers from nomadic huts also seems like a bad idea, as they can do so little early in the game that they’re likely useless units.
7. Maybe break the Lithic era up into Paleolithic, Mesolithic, Neolithic & Chalcolithic eras. This would allow a player to better start where they’d prefer. Also, there should be a direct jump from Paleolithic to later “Lithic” eras, so that those that do start in the Paleolithic can entirely bypass eras, at the cost of massive research costs, of course – in certain start situations, I’d think the cost would be worth it.
8. Shamans should be available a bit earlier
9. Workers should be available a bit later
10. Being able to purchase a portion of buildings/wonders is another feature I’m missing from Vox Populi.
11. Forest Garden doesn’t show a tile graphic after being built.
12. Overall, I’d suggest that every building & wonder have at least one terrain or resource requirement.
13. In the city screen, it says each citizen consumes 2 food, but it’s actually 3
14. I think Civ5 & all it’s mods, usually combine forest/jungle defense bonuses with hills & Saga of Man is apparently not doing that, which seems weird to me.
15. Trade routes should come earlier. These things happened way earlier than most people think.
16. Reduce Archer’s attack radius to 1
17. Reduce the cost of a canoe to that of a scout, as it’s basically a scouting boat, in fact, most early stuff to build seems over priced to me & should all be about 270 gold
18. At this point in my gameplay, I’m thinking you might want to consider making this mod off of Vox Populi. I’ve been playing that mod for so long, as have so many others, that I feel like I’m missing a lot of those elements (as I’m sure others would also feel).
This is great feedback thanks. I'll respond to your points but my memory might be a little fuzzy because I haven't touched this since December. I see you are using examples from Civ IV mods. When I began this project it started out as a mod mod of Caveman 2 Cosmos but then decided there was too much reverse engineering I needed to do.

1. I agree about extra pop in the Lithic Era that's why I balanced growth so that the additional pop is difficult to maintain. My logic is that the villagers have decided to join your civilization.
2. I will take your idea about flatlands into consideration. Marsh is difficult to maneuver in.
3. Man vs. environment is actually very realistic. Especially before the rise of civilization. There is very little evidence of warfare prior to the Neolithic. I think of cities prior to civilization as temporary settlements and I don't think animals attacking is out of the question. As a matter of fact, I believe I gave mammoths the promotion that prevents city attack in my new version. I'll consider all animals. The animals go obsolete sometime in the Classical Era anyway, I believe. FYI, I started overhauling my tech tree to start the game at 20,000 b.c. because I find permanent settlements by nomadic tribes to be a bit immersion breaking.
4. I agree with you about hunters. I've been trying to come up with ideas to limit exploration. Making them weaker would definitely work. Tile attrition would be awesome but I haven't figured out a way to do it. I wanted this for snow and desert. Limiting the range is also a good idea but I can't find a way to do it. I believe I gave hunters the promotion that makes them more powerful when in range of the city to discourage exploration but I know this doesn't really work.
5. So in my newest version I took the time to assemble a mod pack to go along with this project. I believe I added a mod by WHoward that adds a promotion for exploration xp. So this should be possible. Unfortunately I don't know a way to limit the hunter's range.
6. You might be right about this. I don't like workers standing around either.
7. My first version had a Paleolithic and Neolithic era. But I was experiencing a crash whenever I would start the Neolithic. I tore my mod apart trying to find the cause but couldn't find the problem. So I combined the eras and the problem went away. I might separate them later on but for the moment game stability is my priority.
8. Just trying to be historically accurate.
9. Workers didn't really exist before permanent settlements.
10. If there is a mod somewhere for this I might add it. There might be something like this in WHoward's pack but not completely sure.
11. Done. In the new version berry bushes appear.
12. I did this in my original mod that's on Steam. But decided that this was too penalizing for most generic buildings. Wonders, for the most part, will require something terrain related.
13. It's set at 2 to limit growth.
14. This sounds familiar to me. There was something in the code preventing me from doing this. I'll take another look at it.
15. You are right. I had a historical reason for doing what I did. I think it had to do with the beginning of trade for profit.
16. I have considered doing this.
17. I believe I did this already in my new version.
18. I actually began doing that but ran into some compatibility issues with other mods I wanted to use. I think it was related to the DLL. Ultimately I decided to base this on Whoward's DLL. Many of his mods are also part of Vox Populi. Anyway I have a grand vision for this mod and things get tricky when I have to undo what others have done.

@DImensiondog The project is still at a stand still. I have other priorities at the moment but I am looking forward to diving back into this. It's just a massive time sink and requires my full attention.
 

epicivfreak

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Joined
Apr 23, 2010
Messages
248
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USA
4. I agree with you about hunters. I've been trying to come up with ideas to limit exploration. Making them weaker would definitely work. Tile attrition would be awesome but I haven't figured out a way to do it. I wanted this for snow and desert. Limiting the range is also a good idea but I can't find a way to do it. I believe I gave hunters the promotion that makes them more powerful when in range of the city to discourage exploration but I know this doesn't really work.
Check out the mod Passable Ice by Elotar for Tile Attrition implemented in Civ5. I installed it via Steam Workshop.
 

epicivfreak

Warlord
Joined
Apr 23, 2010
Messages
248
Location
USA
I’m playing on a Huge map, Marathon speed on a Perfect World mapscript, this time as Greec

19. Baskets (the building) has a discrepancy, at the top it says +10% Food, at the bottom it says +5% Growth & also, IMO it’s a really silly thing to build in a settlement, so perhaps Basket Weaver?
20. Gatherers & Shamans should stop population growth as I think this may help with early population boom. Workers already do, which makes sense to me.
21. Hunters & Scouts both have a strength of 5, Scout should be at least +1 from Hunters, perhaps more
22. You really need at least 3 tech choices at every branching, otherwise it becomes a rather formulaic path to follow.
23. Gatherers should probably go obsolete when Workers become available.
24. It’s weird that Mammoths have a higher Strength than Warriors (which come later – 10 vs 8).
25. Dwelling should be renamed Dwellings
26. The first “Settler,” perhaps have that be a “Tribe,” and it has a much higher visibility & a much higher move rate than a real Settler, let’s say treat all terrain as roads. This should put an end to bad starts, though it reinforces the whole early-game exploration problem.
27. I didn’t encounter this issue in the previous game...but in this one, the AI has built so many Hunters that it’s actually difficult to move my Scouts around to explore. It’s a bit tedious to explore with all this interference now.
28. Shaman should go obsolete & get replaced with Priests
29. Suggestion, add the following mods & tile changes:
A. Iconian’s Rivers Yield More Food (can be found on Steam) – except that I might go as far as saying Rivers should yield +1 Food & +1 Production & +1 Gold
B. Coasts And Rivers Yield Gold Again (can be found on Steam) – except that I might go as far as saying Coasts should yield +1 Food & +1 Production & +1 Gold
C. Given the above, all tiles should yield as close to ZERO everything as possible, unless improved.
D. Cities should give +1 of every type of yield possible (food, production, gold, faith, culture, etc.)
30. Just a note, my first city has reached a size of 8 & it’s been relatively easy to maintain that population (before even hitting the Ancient Era), meanwhile, most of the AI hasn’t gone over size 3 in their cities. I only see one with Size 5, one with Size 7 & one with Size 12.

OK, can’t take Marathon speed with this mod atm, so I’m ending this game prematurely.
 
Last edited:

UncivilizedGuy

The Village Idiot
Joined
May 24, 2012
Messages
928
Location
Land of the Lost
I’m playing on a Huge map, Marathon speed on a Perfect World mapscript, this time as Greec

19. Baskets (the building) has a discrepancy, at the top it says +10% Food, at the bottom it says +5% Growth & also, IMO it’s a really silly thing to build in a settlement, so perhaps Basket Weaver?
20. Gatherers & Shamans should stop population growth as I think this may help with early population boom. Workers already do, which makes sense to me.
21. Hunters & Scouts both have a strength of 5, Scout should be at least +1 from Hunters, perhaps more
22. You really need at least 3 tech choices at every branching, otherwise it becomes a rather formulaic path to follow.
23. Gatherers should probably go obsolete when Workers become available.
24. It’s weird that Mammoths have a higher Strength than Warriors (which come later – 10 vs 8).
25. Dwelling should be renamed Dwellings
26. The first “Settler,” perhaps have that be a “Tribe,” and it has a much higher visibility & a much higher move rate than a real Settler, let’s say treat all terrain as roads. This should put an end to bad starts, though it reinforces the whole early-game exploration problem.
27. I didn’t encounter this issue in the previous game...but in this one, the AI has built so many Hunters that it’s actually difficult to move my Scouts around to explore. It’s a bit tedious to explore with all this interference now.
28. Shaman should go obsolete & get replaced with Priests
29. Suggestion, add the following mods & tile changes:
A. Iconian’s Rivers Yield More Food (can be found on Steam) – except that I might go as far as saying Rivers should yield +1 Food & +1 Production & +1 Gold
B. Coasts And Rivers Yield Gold Again (can be found on Steam) – except that I might go as far as saying Coasts should yield +1 Food & +1 Production & +1 Gold
C. Given the above, all tiles should yield as close to ZERO everything as possible, unless improved.
D. Cities should give +1 of every type of yield possible (food, production, gold, faith, culture, etc.)
30. Just a note, my first city has reached a size of 8 & it’s been relatively easy to maintain that population (before even hitting the Ancient Era), meanwhile, most of the AI hasn’t gone over size 3 in their cities. I only see one with Size 5, one with Size 7 & one with Size 12.

OK, can’t take Marathon speed with this mod atm, so I’m ending this game prematurely.
It's nice to see someone is actually interested in this mod. Feedback sure helps. I'll respond to your points. But first...

I'm diligently working on this as we speak. The version you are playing was more of an experiment. I wasn't sure how sharing uniques between civilizations and the linear tech tree was going to play out. I decided I liked what I was seeing and decided to focus on the core components of the game instead. I have assembled a mod pack of mostly WHoward's mods and anything that I felt was realistic from the workshop. There were some compatibility issues that I couldn't iron out so I didn't include everything I wanted but I'm satisfied with what I have so far. Currently I am making changes to core mechanics. I have added Farmers and Slaves and tons of growth and production buildings. I will be tackling the tech tree next and anything science related. Then I plan on making the economy a bit more realistic and changing the social policy trees into governments. I will also take a hard look at culture, faith and happiness. Once I get this assembled I will release it for testing. Then I will get back to overhauling the civilizations. So back to your points...

19. I'll double check that discrepancy. I called it Baskets because it's the actual thing people build. I felt this made sense in the prehistoric era since because historically there really wasn't much building going on before the Neolithic. People were semi-nomadic and I imagine anything they would have created would have been a big deal. I'm actually trying to avoid building names like Basket Weaver. I've seen other mods that will call it "Weaver's Hut". I challenged myself to use actual buildings and not professions. For example I used Loom instead of Weaver. I know a Loom is not a building but it is something that can be built and even in the Neolithic I still imagine these communities to have been quite small. I've been researching the historical names of these work places in order to avoid using generic names. I know sometimes that's not possible though.
20. Good idea.
21. I'm sure I did that intentionally for balancing reasons.
22. So here's the deal. I've been going back and forth on this but the problem I have with the vanilla tech tree are the unrealistic beelines. I wanted a more realistic historical progression and I realize this does remove some of the strategy by forcing everyone down a path. The new tech tree will start around 20000 b.c. I haven't made a final decision on this yet but I'm still leaning towards having a more linear progression and I'm thinking about putting technologies back instead of using time periods. I would like to think of this as a tech timeline rather than a tree. Creating more buildings and units does force me to create more techs. I'm trying to keep everything visible on the tech tree.
23. Gatherers will probably upgrade to Farmers
24. Maybe. Warriors were still using stone age weapons. Mammoths were probably quite strong.
25. I agree
26. I don't think I'll change this.
27. Game progression might be a bit different when I redo the tree.
28. Shaman go obsolete in the Classical era. It seemed realistic from everything I have read. But then we get Missionaries. I will be taking a close look at the Faith portion of the game. So something may change. I added the Shaman to make the prehistoric era more interesting.
29. Honestly don't remember what changes I made to tile yields. But in my newest version tile yields have been dialed down to the bare minimum. Special buildings boost tile yields. For instance I added Irrigation Canals that add +1 food to all tiles. I started from scratch with production and growth, overhauled almost every building related to those yields and added a bunch of new ones.
30. Messing with the tile yields has definitely had an affect on the AI. I'm still working to iron this out.
 

epicivfreak

Warlord
Joined
Apr 23, 2010
Messages
248
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USA
I'll keep trying different Civs here & there, to see if I can't come up with anything else. Until a new version is ready for testing, that's about all I can offer. :goodjob:
 
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