Supply Lines in War

[snapple232]

An interesting component to warfare could be the maintenance of supply lines. It doesn't have to be anything overly complicated that requires a lot of micromanagement. In fact the implementation could be pretty simple. If anybody has played Rise of Nations, this will be familiar.

Basically you have one unit, say 'supply wagon', that affects all units within a circular radius such as 15 tiles. Each supply wagon in enemy territory needs to be within range of another supply wagon to function. Every military unit in enemy territory in range of a supply wagon would receive some sort of bonus. If you want to make it a harsh system, maybe all units suffer attrition by default in enemy territory and require supply wagons to negate that. Under a more lenient system, maybe the supply wagons simply speed up healing. This could be tweaked as the developers see fit. The basic idea is that, as an aggressor, you need to link together a supply chain as part of your invading force. This opens up new strategic possibilities for both the defender and attacker.

In later ages the radius could be expanded through better technology ('supply truck', etc). Nearby airfields in later ages can also provide supply. This is also an opportunity for unique civilization bonuses. For example, the Mongols could be able to fight without supply lines giving them a strategic edge.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

It should be even simpler than that. If you can trace a road path back to a friendly city, then you are in supply, if not then you are not.

Or go with Civ IV's system

Friendly Territory
Neutral Territory
Enemy Territory

Each had different healing rates, and maintenance costs

Healing/Repairing/Reinforcing and Maintenance costs are an Excellent area for this.
(Both should be very expensive)

 

[Danielos]

I think supply needs to be a little more complicated than that. Even Civ 1 had a more advanced supply system where units cost hammers to support which put a burden on their home city. Tracing an unbroken line to friendly city is not enough. We also need to accurately reflect the supplies themselves. Units should cost food and resources to sustain

For example:

* A warrior may cost something like 1 food unit/turn

* A spearman may cost 1 food unit and 1 hammer/turn

* A tank perhaps 1 food unit, 1 hammer and 1 oil/turm

* A carrier 3 food units, 3 hammers and 5 oil/turn

 

[oynaz]

I think supply needs to be a little more complicated than that. Even Civ 1 had a more advanced supply system where units cost hammers to support which put a burden on their home city. Tracing an unbroken line to friendly city is not enough. We also need to accurately reflect the supplies themselves. Units should cost food and resources to sustain

For example:

* A warrior may cost something like 1 food unit/turn

* A spearman may cost 1 food unit and 1 hammer/turn

* A tank perhaps 1 food unit, 1 hammer and 1 oil/turm

* A carrier 3 food units, 3 hammers and 5 oil/turn

But that is not fun at all! It might be nescesssary for game balance, but I want to able to raid helpless supply trucks, or at least to sabotage the enemy's roads.

 

[Danielos]

But that is not fun at all! It might be nescesssary for game balance, but I want to able to raid helpless supply trucks, or at least to sabotage the enemy's roads.

You think supply systems are fun in real life?

 

[tom2050]

They have already stated that roads will have more purpose than just moving on. Supply lines fit this bill.

 

[cicero spqr]

hope they have supply lines. i like the idea of wagon trains. perhaps wagon trains could be used in enemy and neutral territory, while roads are in friendly. And if you have a pocket of units that are surrounded, they'll starve or something

 

[migkillertwo]

An interesting component to warfare could be the maintenance of supply lines. It doesn't have to be anything overly complicated that requires a lot of micromanagement. In fact the implementation could be pretty simple. If anybody has played Rise of Nations, this will be familiar.

Basically you have one unit, say 'supply wagon', that affects all units within a circular radius such as 15 tiles. Each supply wagon in enemy territory needs to be within range of another supply wagon to function. Every military unit in enemy territory in range of a supply wagon would receive some sort of bonus. If you want to make it a harsh system, maybe all units suffer attrition by default in enemy territory and require supply wagons to negate that. Under a more lenient system, maybe the supply wagons simply speed up healing. This could be tweaked as the developers see fit. The basic idea is that, as an aggressor, you need to link together a supply chain as part of your invading force. This opens up new strategic possibilities for both the defender and attacker.

In later ages the radius could be expanded through better technology ('supply truck', etc). Nearby airfields in later ages can also provide supply. This is also an opportunity for unique civilization bonuses. For example, the Mongols could be able to fight without supply lines giving them a strategic edge.

You'd need supply lines to create any sort of new tactical element. THAT just complicates things. There's really no new tactical element if your units have to be within 15 hexagons of some other specialized unit.

 

[weltraeumer]

You'd need supply lines to create any sort of new tactical element. THAT just complicates things. There's really no new tactical element if your units have to be within 15 hexagons of some other specialized unit.

yes, your own supply wagon is of course not very helpful tactically... it´s the enemies we are interested in... and well just put a wagon with the track, not very complicated either... cutting off supply has through all ages always been a military strategy, it shouldn´t be neglected in civ as too complicated (just cause you´re not used to it) or used abstract with some food or hammers substractions in cities... it shouldn´t be untouchable, the ability to deal long term damage to an army (they maybe cannot heal or even lose health) actually is what tactic and strategy is about.

 

[migkillertwo]

yes, your own supply wagon is of course not very helpful tactically... it´s the enemies we are interested in... and well just put a wagon with the track, not very complicated either... cutting off supply has through all ages always been a military strategy, it shouldn´t be neglected in civ as too complicated (just cause you´re not used to it) or used abstract with some food or hammers substractions in cities... it shouldn´t be untouchable, the ability to deal long term damage to an army (they maybe cannot heal or even lose health) actually is what tactic and strategy is about.

I totally agree that Civ needs some kind of logistics system (Or ANY other system for that matter, and it appears that Firaxis is trying to do that) in order to emphasize destroying your enemy through maneuver rather than sheer firepower. But this sort of logistics system the OP proposed doesn't do that. In real life, you need a supply line to an industrial center, supply depot, whatever. Its not like there are supply trucks with unlimited ammo and fuel that refuel and re-arm units nearby. By using mobile forces (tanks, motorized/mechanized infantry) to swing around and sever those supply trains, you could defeat your enemy. But this system doesn't allow you to do that.

 

[snapple232]

I totally agree that Civ needs some kind of logistics system (Or ANY other system for that matter, and it appears that Firaxis is trying to do that) in order to emphasize destroying your enemy through maneuver rather than sheer firepower. But this sort of logistics system the OP proposed doesn't do that. In real life, you need a supply line to an industrial center, supply depot, whatever. Its not like there are supply trucks with unlimited ammo and fuel that refuel and re-arm units nearby. By using mobile forces (tanks, motorized/mechanized infantry) to swing around and sever those supply trains, you could defeat your enemy. But this system doesn't allow you to do that.

In real life, the supply line is also always in motion, and the supply trucks have to constantly return to base to re-supply. What you're implying is that the player should have to micromanage a line of moving supply trucks carrying a finite amount of resources, and every time one runs out you have to order it back to base, re-supply it, and then order it back to the front lines. What I proposed is just an abstraction of that to make it manageable to the player, like many other systems in Civ.

 

[migkillertwo]

In real life, the supply line is also always in motion, and the supply trucks have to constantly return to base to re-supply. What you're implying is that the player should have to micromanage a line of moving supply trucks carrying a finite amount of resources, and every time one runs out you have to order it back to base, re-supply it, and then order it back to the front lines. What I proposed is just an abstraction of that to make it manageable to the player, like many other systems in Civ.

Or how about just create some kind of un-managed abstraction for the supply train. I suggested that an unbroken physical route (road, railroad, sea-route) to a supply center would suffice. Your abstraction adds absolutely no tactical element to the game. You get your units supplies by putting a supply wagon in the same stack, or in the same army. Supply wagons didn't add much of a tactical element to Rise of Nations, they wouldn't add any tactical element to ciV either.

 

[snapple232]

Or how about just create some kind of un-managed abstraction for the supply train. I suggested that an unbroken physical route (road, railroad, sea-route) to a supply center would suffice. Your abstraction adds absolutely no tactical element to the game. You get your units supplies by putting a supply wagon in the same stack, or in the same army. Supply wagons didn't add much of a tactical element to Rise of Nations, they wouldn't add any tactical element to ciV either.

And how exactly would you sever an enemy's supply line in that system? By putting a unit on the road? In that case you'd have to guard every single tile of the road. Not to mention how you would be able to break supply lines from the sea. The tactical element my proposed system is meant to add, is that it gives you an actual set of targets to aim for in order to disrupt the supply line (the supply trucks).

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Yeah, I'm wondering if situations can crop up where a weaker, fast moving unit can slip behind your lines & pillage your roads-thus leaving your units in enemy territory unable to heal (or else heal at a much, much slower rate). Another alternative I once considered was that you could only penetrate so far into enemy territory before you lost the ability to heal-& so had to either capture a city in range or build a fort within range of your territory. As you got further into enemy territory, the more forts you'd have to build-extending your healing range each time. Obviously some units (Special Ops & Scouts) would have the ability to go deep into enemy territory without losing their healing ability!

Aussie.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Actually, in Dom Pedro II's "Test of Time" mod, for CivIV, he had a system where certain units couldn't move in enemy territory unless another kind of unit *captured* it in advance. I can't recall all the details, but IIRC, foot units like infantry, Paratroops & Marines could capture a tile &-in so doing-allow units like chariots, knights & tanks to treat it like friendly territory. Also, because tile control wasn't determined until the *end* of the turn, you couldn't risk using just *any* unit-just in case it got destroyed before control was determined. It was quite ingenious !

Aussie.

 

[Naokaukodem]

An interesting thing could be water places. They would be generated evenly on the map. Units would need water, and the control of those water places could trigger some interesting skirmishes that was so good in the past Civs but way to rare.

First i thought about giving every unit a water bar, that empty with time and/or move. Not sure how to deal with, as there should as well be a food bar. Then i thought about giving a small power boost for units around a controlled water place. But that would only strenghter the owner. Then I thought about giving the units going through a water place a power boost that can be kept a certain amount of time after having quit the water place. That would still make the owner stronger, but at least now it would encourage the attack over the defense. Well it is some how a combination of the two above. Stays to determine the place of the food in this.

What do you think?

 

[Camikaze]

I was excited when I saw this thread; good to see someone else wanting supply lines too. But then I realised that, alas, it was supply units the OP was after. *Sigh*

Fully customisabe and automatable supply lines FTW.

 

[Phatkarp]

I've always liked the idea of a *line* connecting the unit to a supply center, either a city or fort. I don' t think the OP's idea of a supply unit, as a potential supplement to this system, is so terrible. Either one could open up the tactical manuevering that the game has so sorely needed for a long time.

Given the repeated references to Panzer General, we could end up with a supply system like that game had - each unit had a limited fuel/ammo counter that needed to be periodically resupplied. The ability of a unit to reinforce/resupply was affected by its contact with enemy units. If the unit had not contact it could fully resupply. The more enemy units it was adjacent to the less effective the reinforcement/resupply would be.

 

[migkillertwo]

And how exactly would you sever an enemy's supply line in that system? By putting a unit on the road? In that case you'd have to guard every single tile of the road. Not to mention how you would be able to break supply lines from the sea. The tactical element my proposed system is meant to add, is that it gives you an actual set of targets to aim for in order to disrupt the supply line (the supply trucks).

attacking supply lines with artillery or air power hasn't exactly been the most prevalent of strategies in the 20th century.

And regarding putting a unit on the road between the army and the city, that's exactly what you'd do, and that's exactly what armies have done in the 19th and twentieth centuries, they put units between the enemy and their supply bases and cut them off, thereby forcing a surrender.

 

[trickofthehand]

attacking supply lines with artillery or air power hasn't exactly been the most prevalent of strategies in the 20th century.

This has been a prevalent strategy in every non major-theater conflict in the 20th century, executed nearly exclusively with air power and asymmetrical forces.