Supply Lines in War

[migkillertwo]

This has been a prevalent strategy in every non major-theater conflict in the 20th century, executed nearly exclusively with air power and asymmetrical forces.

And guess what? The most destructive wars were major-theatre wars! The wars that CiV is trying to recreate are theatre wars!

 

[Luckystrike77]

OK lads, some thoughts:

In CiV when you capture an enemy tile it will get your culture at once. So I guess it will be simple to see if you're in supply or not. If a unit is inside enemy territory, and cut off from the homelands boarders it will be out of supply. Simple and genious.

 

[The Cosmic Kid]

Actually, in Dom Pedro II's "Test of Time" mod, for CivIV, he had a system where certain units couldn't move in enemy territory unless another kind of unit *captured* it in advance. I can't recall all the details, but IIRC, foot units like infantry, Paratroops & Marines could capture a tile &-in so doing-allow units like chariots, knights & tanks to treat it like friendly territory. Also, because tile control wasn't determined until the *end* of the turn, you couldn't risk using just *any* unit-just in case it got destroyed before control was determined. It was quite ingenious !

Aussie.

Yeah, that's what this thread made me think of, too. Could be made a part of the "more realistic borders" mechanic quite easily, from what we've seen so far.

Although it seems to be most strategically interesting with narrow stack-of-doom pushes into enemy territory. With one-unit-per-hex, the fronts are going to be far broader, so getting some units behind the enemy and cutting off all the tiles that supply them might not be feasible.

 

[Geek113377]

This is a cool idea that i was excited to notice! these supply wagons would probably have to be able to be captured like other civilian units, and capturing them would have to give the capturer some bonus other than just having their function (gold, fully heals the unit that captured it, other possibilities).

 

[Kissamies]

It's good to use search before starting a thread.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=354376

I still stand by the ideas that:
1. Supply lines should be handled much like trade routes.
2. More complicated supply routes increase the maintenance costs.

 

[Malkaviel]

Supply lines are a great idea to implement, but it seems throughout history not all advancing armies have needed supply lines... hannibal had none for years, his troops being capable of foraging in the roman countryside to make the force quite self sufficient... advancing europeans in the first crusade actually practiced a scorched earth policy as they advanced on jerusalem, poisoning wells and the like, only establishing trade routes back west after they'd succeeded in the military endeavor.

So it seems supply lines have been more of a contemporary issue in the last 500 (?) years, mostly for ammunition, medicine and fuel. Truly Hitler failed in russia for over-extended supply lines.

So maybe it should be established that only more modern units require supply lines. The supply line "wagon" or "boat" idea is good i think as a destroyable unit. Once a city in enemy land is captured, however, there is little need for such a unit, until the army again begins advancing.

Also some infantry units may have a potential for a "self sufficiency" upgrade representing training in wilderness survival. Some cultures may inherently have this upgrade from upbringing in jungle or other wilderness environment (viet cong or today's taliban).

What would be the effects of over-extended supply line? Do units cease to exist (despawn) if separated from supply lines for (x) turns or do they lose potency (-attack, -defense) for every turn of separation? I'd lean toward the latter.

 

[Kissamies]

See the other thread. The simplest way to represent the lack of supply would be losing health gradually and not being able to heal. As I also suggested in there, at least older units should be able to supply themselves for a while by pillaging enemy improvements and, as you suggested, there could be a some sort of "live off the nature" promotion for some infantry units.

 

[V. Soma]

The simplest way to represent the lack of supply would be losing health gradually and not being able to heal.

I agree, a year or two ago I had an idea of a mod and there of supply line called 'attrition',
which was like this.

Unit could get well and with no attrition though, if
- on tile that gives food... (EDIT: farm improvement it would be, I think, not simple plain tile)
- on tile with cottage...
- or on road that is unbroken (clear of enemy all the way) to a friendly city
- or on owned/friendly tile

 

[majk-iii]

OK lads, some thoughts:

In CiV when you capture an enemy tile it will get your culture at once. So I guess it will be simple to see if you're in supply or not. If a unit is inside enemy territory, and cut off from the homelands boarders it will be out of supply. Simple and genious.

Maybe if we get something like a 'layered border-system' where if you take/occupies a tile - it's yours (lower). So long as your unit dominates that tile and it's not surrounded by enemy tiles (or it leaves).

When your culture/language/people also spreads to the same tile - it's really yours (upper)

Such system could maybe be shown with faded (for 'lower' ownership) and clearly drawn (for 'upper') borders.

This could also be expanded upon by letting 'faded' tiles/borderlands be subject of peace-treaties and the like. (???)

 

[majk-iii]

...not sure how i come across here, but what i'm thinking of in general is the use of the word/concept "culture".

-Like there's a difference in merely controlling an area and it 'really' beeing 'yours'. Think for example occupied france: The germans may have had virtually total control of the area, even building bases and other infrastructure... but the french didn't automaticly become germans by default (they were of course still culturally/lingually/nationally french), and as a result things would occationally blow up.

Not sure that it transaltes into the/a game but if your army brings its 'borders' with them (which i guess could be reasonable) ...'culture' takes a little longer to subvert, and is mostly done by other means. (?)

 

[Set]

Supply lines should work like this. Before the arrival af planes you should have to have 1 of 2 things. Option 1: An unbroken road leading back to a city with a supply center building. To supply these units in enemy territory(which is the only time you would have to supply them) you would have to take food and commerce away from the city with the supply center maybe stopping it's growth or starving and causing increased war weariness. one supply center would be able to supply maybe 3-4 units if you hve more than that you would have build new ones in other cities these supply centers in your other cities would also help reduce the effects of supplying the original units. to break this supply line ypu would have to brek the line with a unit that had more strength than your supply line which would be upgraded by certain technologies to get more strength. option 2: you have a unbroken road leading to a port city that has unbroken trade route leading back to a city with a supply center. this could be broken by putting one of your ships on the supply route(to help avoid confusion supply routes on ocean or land would be highlighted in yellow) Also you could give units starting with amphibious like matines or berserkers more importance because you woudn't be able to land without losing supply making an assault directly from the sea vital to take a port city on another continent to keep your units in supply. maybe it to make it easier to protect these routes there would be something like sea patrol where any enemy units trying to block a supply line weere automatically attacked. Pillaging stuff would also supply units maybe pillaging something would supply one unit. this could make it much more worthwile to pillage. Also certain units like scouts shouldn't need supply lines and until you have at least three units in enemy territory. when a supply line is cut units that are out of supply should automatically drop to half life and suffer slow attrition from then on this could mean a player with half another players units who cuts a supply line would suddenly more powerful than his enemy.

with planes you could supply your units by air however the enemy could intercept these supply lines which would have strength similar to land supply lines and if one was intercepted your cities commerce and food go to waste. to protect these you would have to put planes on a mission like escort supply line and they would protect parts of the supply line within a certain range from enemy planes enemy planes would also be able to air strike land and sea supply lines reducing the amount of units they supply or completely destroying them this could give carriers a more important job because they would have to protect important sea suply lines from enemy planes. Maybe certain techs would increase the amount of units an you could supply in enemy territory.

 

[Zhahz]

Supply and attrition were pretty cool in rise of nations but just seems like unnecessary hassle for something like Civ, which isn't a pure war game and deals with a lot of heavy abstraction in it's game mechanisms.

 

[CripesAmighty]

I know that this has been mentioned before, but I really think one of the easiest ways to implement supply lines would be through conquered tiles. I think that after having a unit placed in an enemy tile for a specific amount of time that tile should become 'friendly' (which would eventually allow for a "keep conquered territory" in the diplomatic process of peace). Friendly tiles that were connected to a friendly city would mean that the unit is in supply. Units that were surrounded or cut off from friendly cities would suffer a massive defensive/offensive penalty. This way flanking and outmaneuvering would actually be an important feature and could create some strategic importance.

I always thought it would be cool to have a system like this and with the one unit per tile, this would make much more sense. So even if the enemy is holding onto a fort or a hill that provides some big defensive bonus, it wouldn't make sense to attack it, but to surround it and cut if off from supply. Then you could mop it up after it had been completely cut off.

This is probably one of the more simple suggestions for supply lines and gets rid of almost any need for micromanagement. I hope they have some sort of supply lines in here though.

 

[lankypeter]

I really like that idea. I have always felt that you should be rewarded in some fashion if you were strong enough to surround a city or fort even if you didn't attack that city/fort. So, if you spend enough time just surrounding a city/fort without any attacks from either party, then something negative should happen, defensively speaking, to the surrounded entity.

 

[Ahriman]

Forts in Civ have always been pretty weak and useless. Why would you want to make them weaker?

There's no point in trying to model a siege when none of the benefits of a fortress (effective ability to project power, through being able to ride somewhere and pillage/raid and then flee back to the strongpoint) are being modeled?

 

[duckstab]

If they implement unit supply in Civ V I hope they go for a much-simplified system that doesn't involve each unit having to trace a line free of enemy units or zones of control back to a friendly city/fort/supply unit/whatever. I'm sorry, but I played way too many board wargames back in the day where I had to do that and it just isn't much fun.

 

[mboettcher]

Supply lines should work like this...

Quoting Set because he is right but also to point out that his system is almost entirely identical to the Hearts of Iron III supply system. This would be similar to the system Id want to see implemented if I wanted to see supply lines in the game. But....


Look Civ isn't about intricately simulating warfare and the evolution strategy. Its Civ building game. Supply lines (and ALL the unseen complications that we are not noticing here but Ill point them out if necessary) would make this game a war simulator where a clever Human tactician could win despite being bad at Civ playing ability because they out smarted an AI that could never be designed well enough to handle such situations.

Anyone who has played Hearts Of Iron knows its an easy as hell game to win unless the Computer has enormous advantages. Advantages which force the Human player to attack often to use his/her advantage of superior tactical/strategic decisions. You dont want a system in Civ that would force the game into constant warfare.

Also do you really want to see the game shift from units/techs/diplomacy/space races and all the things that make Civ both simple yet intricate into a game about Armies, fronts, micromanagement (though supply lines themselves could be handled by the computer), Supply techs and dozens or hundreds of minor military techs, all the new resources and volumes of available resources (again like HOI III- how much oil do you have is now a question not just Do I have an oil derrick or not? This would happen to all strategic resources which would have to evolve and change with eras and technology), movement speed, individual army leadership, etc?

To be brief supply lines is a step in the direction of the war simulator cliff we do not want to fall off.

 

[mboettcher]

The one benefit would be making forst important like they actually were in history. Computer couldn't just bypass them if they cant feed beyond them.

 

[Rusty Edge]

Or how about just create some kind of un-managed abstraction for the supply train. I suggested that an unbroken physical route (road, railroad, sea-route) to a supply center would suffice. Your abstraction adds absolutely no tactical element to the game. You get your units supplies by putting a supply wagon in the same stack, or in the same army. Supply wagons didn't add much of a tactical element to Rise of Nations, they wouldn't add any tactical element to ciV either.

That sounds like trade route mechanics, something that already bogs down the processor in the late game.

I don't mean to pick on you in particular- I guess I'm in the mboettcher school - concerned about making civ too much of a wargame.

I'd be happy with the existing unit cost mechanics with the addition of the Influence- Driven War mod.

 

[CripesAmighty]

@ Those opposing supply lines (I would quote you, but that would be too long)

I can see why you wouldn't want these kinds of systems in the game, but these systems wouldn't be pushing to far into the 'war simulator' area (at least my suggestion of supply lines). There is definitely a difference between gameplay and realism, but the secret is trying to find that special balance. Rejecting something outright, simply because you feel it will be too much like another game, doesn't make much sense. These supply systems would really just make the war game more strategic and involve some actual thinking when it comes to warfare, rather than spamming out massive armies and throwing them at the enemy when they least suspected it, which was the basis of warfare in the older games.

Overall, changes like these would make a better game and actually create more balance compared to the older versions of Civ, as long as it is done in moderation. Basically, don't reject it outright. There is some great possibilities using systems like these in Civ.