Supply Lines in War

[Rusty Edge]

@ Those opposing supply lines (I would quote you, but that would be too long)

I can see why you wouldn't want these kinds of systems in the game, but these systems wouldn't be pushing to far into the 'war simulator' area (at least my suggestion of supply lines). There is definitely a difference between gameplay and realism, but the secret is trying to find that special balance. Rejecting something outright, simply because you feel it will be too much like another game, doesn't make much sense. These supply systems would really just make the war game more strategic and involve some actual thinking when it comes to warfare, rather than spamming out massive armies and throwing them at the enemy when they least suspected it, which was the basis of warfare in the older games.

Overall, changes like these would make a better game and actually create more balance compared to the older versions of Civ, as long as it is done in moderation. Basically, don't reject it outright. There is some great possibilities using systems like these in Civ.

Actually, we're not so far apart on specifics. Moctezuma's Influence Driven War -
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=188007&highlight=Influence+Driven+War

 

[boneys26]

supply lines via roads and rail would be great, it would add a lot to the warfare side of the game and give you even more reason to fight for control of the skies.

 

[rh1n0man]

I would love supply lines in future civs. My dream would be for land military units to require a trade route equivalent (friendly roads,tracks, rivers & sea) from them to one of the owners citys in order to heal and prevent some sort of damage.I envision this damage to set in after around 2 consecutive suplyless turns and take away around one tenth of current health. The exact percent can be adjusted via promotions.
If routes from units to owners citys are destroyed then routes from units to owner's forts could delay the onset of the inability to heal and the suplyless damage. This would maybe make forts useful? the forts would have to have themselves been connected to an owners city at one point previously in order for this ability to happen
Units can act as a chain and continue supplys to adjacent units as to move combat somewhat off the roads
Civilian units, naval units, air units and scouts/explorers don't require any supplys.
Military land units require supplys even if turned into civilian naval transports
damage eliminated if unit pilages inprovement that provides or
damage increased if on desert or tundra
Supply routes and trade routes represented by animations of trucks/trains/ships going along the roads/tracks/rivers/sea to all players.
Planes with acess to supply lines can use turn to airlift supplys to one unit

For Those complaining of "war simulator" realize that Civ5 is already going the way of military tactics via one unit per hex. All supply lines would do would make the tactics complete. I don't know much about programing AI but I don't think that it would be to hard to teach the AI to send some anti cavalry units along its lines and to not let units become isolated. I would say the fact that AI doesn't have to worry about religion or espionage anymore could offset the human advantages of logistics.

 

[Shurdus]

I think there is nothing really wrong with the idea of having supply lines, I am just wondering if it would be misplaced in a game like Civ. The idea in the OP seems simple and elegant, but it would be something also that I really do not feel like spending time on to manage that.

Why do we need these lines anyway? This is a point where I feel like realism is taking the upper hand, while the focus imo should remain on making civ a good and streamlined game. There are plenty of games out there that handle specific area's of civ better. There are better economic games out there, better warfare games, etc. What civ does exceptionelly well however is putting all these systems together without complicating things too much. That is how I like it, and that is how it should remain imo.

But whatever, should supply lines ever make it into the game, the first mod I will download is one that gets rid of them.

 

[Magma]

All I would want for supplylines is a simply green line from the city to the unit. A line you can choose to show/hide. It will be automatic, but can be player designed. It will cost maintenance, the longer the higher cost. Occasionally a small wagon train would go from the city OR fort to the unit and back as graphic flavor.

Gameplay-wise, aside from the cost, a unit can move onto the supply line and block the unit from healing until the supplyline is adjusted. If automated then the supply line would auto-adjust next turn.

Easy system with no need to micromanage. Else I really don't want supply lines. I would rather have a greater focus on the government/politics.

 

[trickofthehand]

And guess what? The most destructive wars were major-theatre wars! The wars that CiV is trying to recreate are theatre wars!

Actually the disruption of supply lines is the SECOND most prevalent strategy in major-theater wars, with the primary objective being destruction of manufacturing centers. So in short, your misinformed opinion is wrong, and supply lines are actually of supreme importance in modern war.

 

[Turkey_ballz]

You think supply systems are fun in real life?

This is a computer game... Not real life...

If you want to implement something into the game it has to add to the gameplay, not add to the realism at the expense of gameplay.

 

[nomooon]

yes, your own supply wagon is of course not very helpful tactically... it´s the enemies we are interested in... and well just put a wagon with the track, not very complicated either... cutting off supply has through all ages always been a military strategy, it shouldn´t be neglected in civ as too complicated (just cause you´re not used to it) or used abstract with some food or hammers substractions in cities... it shouldn´t be untouchable, the ability to deal long term damage to an army (they maybe cannot heal or even lose health) actually is what tactic and strategy is about.

I AGREE! Fighting over logistics has been THE MOST IMPORTANT aspect of wars ever; you ever hear people say "amateurs talk strategy while professionals talk logistics", well it is another thing to come up with a fun interactive way to represent logistics tho

 

[Dachs]

hahaha lines of supply are only intermittently important since most of the time you just maintain your army off the country it's in at the time

what's important are lines of communication for most of human history and you can't simulate those in a civ v style game

 

[MrHan]

there was a discussion about this in the 2k forums. I think this could be a very fun idea and add another layer of strategy to the game - you know, cutting off supplies to your enemy and starving them to death, etc. - and I think it would work well with the 1UpH mechanic in ciV.

But logistics is a complicated deal IRL, and it can become so in the game as well. Yes, there are ways to implement this without making it too complicated, but however you do it it's still additional micro to bog the game down. The last thing I want to have to do is get bogged down with managing logistics for the 100-something armies i've got going on all over the world near the end of the game. Besides, there are mechanics already in the game, such as unit upkeep and limiting units that can be made with 1 resource (eg 5 swordsmen w/ 1 source of iron), that simulate logistics to a certain degree.

Conclusion: This would be fun in a mod.

 

[MrHan]

Moctezuma's Influence Driven War -
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=188007&highlight=Influence+Driven+War

mm. I love that mod.

 

[duckstab]

Conclusion: This would be fun in a mod.

That's my take on it. There are enough people who want Civ V to be a more traditional war simulator, and it would be a shame to shut the door on that completely.

For myself, I don't want Civ V to become an accurate war simulator, and especially not if it means more micro. If I have to start tracing supply lines all the time I'll probably lose interest in Civ V pretty quickly.

 

[nomooon]

hahaha lines of supply are only intermittently important since most of the time you just maintain your army off the country it's in at the time

what's important are lines of communication for most of human history and you can't simulate those in a civ v style game

well not every place you march through will be laden with fully grown potatoes, and what about ammunition? what about when seasons change and troops on the front need winter clothes?

 

[Dachs]

well not every place you march through will be laden with fully grown potatoes, [...] what about when seasons change and troops on the front need winter clothes?

That is why logistical concerns dictated the movement of armies more than purely strategic-relational ones did. Probably no campaign demonstrates this better than the sparring between Eumenes and Antigonos in Iran in 318-316 BC. As for seasonal concerns, well, operations tended to not work out so well in nasty weather back in the day, too, for the vast majority of armies. Military organizations capable of conducting operations in bad conditions tended to achieve disproportionate results, see e.g. the Byzantines' crushing defeat of the Bulgarians on the Spercheios River in 997.

and what about ammunition?

Irrelevant until the sixteenth century, and therefore for the vast majority of human warfare. Even then, it was possible to conduct a campaign without regard to lines of supply, perhaps even advisable; see for instance Scott's march on Mexico City.

 

[paradigmx]

I like the way supply works in Hearts of Iron, Supply is generated by cities, all units that can draw a line to a city is supplied(of course, in HOI you also had to build or trade for supplies, but lets drop that for the time being and assume cities generate unlimited supplies for simplicity sake). In HOI you control land that your unit has taken, if Civ included that kind of border system, then it would be a matter of capturing the tiles between the nearest city and the front line, which would result in those units being unsupplied and easy for the pickings. borders move and change a lot, but that too is the face of war. In fact, the whole point of Paratroopers in WW2 was to drop in behind enemy lines and cut off the supply to the beaches, this left them unsupplied for a short time as well, which meant Allied forces had to cut through the unsupplied Axis forces to resupply the paratroopers.

In fact, the term "Divide and conquer" was created to illustrate the importance of supply lines in war, you first "divide" the combatants from their supplies, then you "conquer" them while they have no recourse against you.

The way to win a war isn't through pure brute force, very few nations can afford to throw soldiers at an enemy and win, ask Russia.