Svartalfar Illusionist: Idea(for 1.31 since 1.4 will rework the magic system)

[Krieger66]

Could the passing of the illusion trait be turned off for particular spells you cast? This could be accompliced by having an ability like the "reveal self" for the cloak of Esus. You would lose the illusionist promo and get a placeholder promo, maybe passing a -10% combat penalty for summoned units to deal with the fact they are not use to summoning real creatures.

For 1.4 they could have a spell similar to phantom killer or weird from dnd. This would be a summons that requires specialization in death and illusion.
When the summoned illusion starts combat with an enemy there is a chance for the target to die from fright, depending on level and resistance to magic. Otherwise it just damages the unit normally up to 35-45% or something around that value. As soon as it finishes combat it "dies".

 

[PPQ_Purple]

What I think would be interesting is if they did like you said but they tied it to that will power thing they have been planing.

In essence remove the non death thing and instead have a strong willed unit get bonuses vs illusions and weak willed ones penalties. That could make illusionists quite interesting.

 

[Krieger66]

What I think would be interesting is if they did like you said but they tied it to that will power thing they have been planing.

In essence remove the non death thing and instead have a strong willed unit get bonuses vs illusions and weak willed ones penalties. That could make illusionists quite interesting.

that would be a really cool thing. the bonus would act like a saving throw right? Maybe, weak-willed units would get a penalty vs illusions as well? This would work for physically strong melee units because it would effectively negate their advantage if they are mentally weak.
Now if only there was a fuzzy mouse-like developer here to provide feedback *cough*

 

[PPQ_Purple]

I know, think about it.
But to elaborate further. What I would do is make illusionists ignore the standard magic resistance but completely depend on the will power of the target.

That way, they are completely different from all the other mages in the game.

 

[IronClaymore]

This could be interesting. You could do it by keeping the "illusion" promotion, and giving other units a bonus against this specific promotion. It could liven up the courage spell a bit by giving it an extra bonus versus illusions too.

The illusionists themselves could have their own miniature tier of skill: they start off with standard illusionist promo, working as it does now, producing non-real creatures that can't quite finish off their target. At a certain level, they can gain the ability to create summons that can fully destroy a unit. Perhaps even (and this is the fun part) get the ability to give all their summons the marksman promotion

It would work quite interestingly with unit and promotion based resistances to illusions. Say you were fighting a stack of bannor: a few mages and clerics protected by a bunch of guardsman champions. But all you have are mages and assassins. Normally, the assassins would break themselves on the champions, while the mages and priests (who would likely have better illusion resistance) would defend against the summons. But marksmen summons would scare the champions to death, leaving all the squishy mages for the assassins to eat.

I don't know how you'd take unit strength out of the equation entirely though, and replace it with a willpower stat. Do spells like maelstrom and curse (arcane mastery) depend on unit strength?

Edit: I've just realised - marksman fireball. Isn't that the most deliciously evil idea you've heard all day?

 

[Krieger66]

This could be interesting. You could do it by keeping the "illusion" promotion, and giving other units a bonus against this specific promotion. It could liven up the courage spell a bit by giving it an extra bonus versus illusions too.

The illusionists themselves could have their own miniature tier of skill: they start off with standard illusionist promo, working as it does now, producing non-real creatures that can't quite finish off their target. At a certain level, they can gain the ability to create summons that can fully destroy a unit. Perhaps even (and this is the fun part) get the ability to give all their summons the marksman promotion

It would work quite interestingly with unit and promotion based resistances to illusions. Say you were fighting a stack of bannor: a few mages and clerics protected by a bunch of guardsman champions. But all you have are mages and assassins. Normally, the assassins would break themselves on the champions, while the mages and priests (who would likely have better illusion resistance) would defend against the summons. But marksmen summons would scare the champions to death, leaving all the squishy mages for the assassins to eat.

I don't know how you'd take unit strength out of the equation entirely though, and replace it with a willpower stat. Do spells like maelstrom and curse (arcane mastery) depend on unit strength?

Edit: I've just realised - marksman fireball. Isn't that the most deliciously evil idea you've heard all day?

That still means illusionists(a unique unit), is penalised with a damage limit on all abilities, with no real compensation for this ability.

A fireball summoned by a mage:
4 2
same except with illusionist:
4 90% 2

You now lose the ability to destroy barbarian galleys, use strong summons to kill enemies; so you can risk your 4 illusionist in a combat or retreat and let the injured enemy heal himself before you can bring in reinforcements to finish him off. 90% of a 36 enemy is 3.6, if they have 4 from fire combat, your now in over your head because his strength is 7.6 and unlikely to be taken down by your illusionist w/o combat V and alot of luck(assuming again he does not have any combat promos himself).

The healing ability doesn't even function, my units remained damaged after the battle inspite of a 100% heal after battle ability.

 

[Torugu]

...

This might just be me but I don't think a single Illusionist should be able to take out a 36 + 4 fire unit...

 

[Krieger66]

...

This might just be me but I don't think a single Illusionist should be able to take out a 36 + 4 fire unit...

Its not neccesarilly about taking out a 36, I mean a mage summons could get lucky and beat one but the point is limited damage summons work poorly replacing a mainstream unit that does not have a damage limit.

If your fireball beat a 2str monster with + 3element str for example, but was limited to a 90% cap it would have 3.2str left vs 4str illusionist. That gives you maybe 60-70% odds of winning that battle and good chance of losing your illusionist who can supposedly mop-up after their summons.

If there is a stack of say 6 warriors, you have 2 illusionist's. You don't want to have your illusionist attack after your summons because you'll be open to a counter by at least 4 of those units. In the best case your illusionists will be undamaged by the attack but then likely to be killed next turn. If your summons could kill, like every other arcane unit's in the game, you could kill a few units, retreat, and repeat untill they are a manageable size-here you just weaken the enemy, who heal as they close in.

 

[odalrick]

If your fireball beat a 2str monster with + 3element str for example, but was limited to a 90% cap it would have 3.2str left vs 4str illusionist. That gives you maybe 60-70% odds of winning that battle and good chance of losing your illusionist who can supposedly mop-up after their summons.

I don't think you math is correct, the Illusionist only needs to win one combat round, the monster would need to win at least three... five I think in your example. That's 97% victory for the Illusionist.

If there is a stack of say 6 warriors, you have 2 illusionist's. You don't want to have your illusionist attack after your summons because you'll be open to a counter by at least 4 of those units. In the best case your illusionists will be undamaged by the attack but then likely to be killed next turn. If your summons could kill, like every other arcane unit's in the game, you could kill a few units, retreat, and repeat untill they are a manageable size-here you just weaken the enemy, who heal as they close in.

But since your summons are illusions, you could just keep one as a stack defender and not retreat. You only need one since it heals fully after victory. With two illusionists maintaining one summon each there is no reasonable number of warriors that could hope to get through.


Illusions are weaker than regular summons, but they have a very different combat role too. I think +1 duration would make illusions equal; and Fireball and similar units should not be illusions. (They're not really summons.)

 

[Krieger66]

I don't think you math is correct, the Illusionist only needs to win one combat round, the monster would need to win at least three... five I think in your example. That's 97% victory for the Illusionist.



But since your summons are illusions, you could just keep one as a stack defender and not retreat. You only need one since it heals fully after victory. With two illusionists maintaining one summon each there is no reasonable number of warriors that could hope to get through.


Illusions are weaker than regular summons, but they have a very different combat role too. I think +1 duration would make illusions equal; and Fireball and similar units should not be illusions. (They're not really summons.)

Thats part of what I'm saying, but illusions DON'T heal after victory its glitched somehow. My Alazkan clone was at 5.8 out of 14 or something I think after attacking an archer and retreating. The illusion race promo must be glitched somehow.
Assuming the enemy doesn't get lucky(which they often do), the injured warrior at .3 is healed to 1.2 and the stack will likely advance on your illusionist. Sure you could retreat, but in some cases this would lead to the warriors getting to a city or improvement. If you could take 2 of those guys out your illusionists would likely be able to defend and win against the remaining warriors.

If you happen to have a strong summon, which barring an ice elemental requires channeling 3 and a national unit, it is not too likely your 2 summons will do much good, and additionally water-crossing summons cannot take out ships which is helpful when you have no naval units in the area.

 

[odalrick]

Thats part of what I'm saying, but illusions DON'T heal after victory its glitched somehow.

I wasn't clear. They heal after victory, which in Civ IV means killing the opponent. Keep them as defenders and they will heal when they kill an enemy.

I think they are meant to heal after any and all battles, but whoever made them didn't think everything through. If you need to kill a defending Illusion in several battles you need units that withdraw or aren't alive.

If you happen to have a strong summon, which barring an ice elemental requires channeling 3 and a national unit, it is not too likely your 2 summons will do much good, and additionally water-crossing summons cannot take out ships which is helpful when you have no naval units in the area.

I don't remember what strength the mid-tier summons are. About six or eight, right? That should be plenty to stop warriors, especially with some defensive bonuses. Against equal tier units things aren't so good, but they shouldn't be. Summons are risk free units.

 

[Valkrionn]

All I'll really say on this is that summons will (obviously) be changed significantly by 1.4, and I have several ideas for illusionists but am not sold on any of them yet.

 

[Krieger66]

I would like to apologise to the RiFE team for what I said a few days ago. I was completely out of line for taking out my frustrations with losing to the barbarians out on some of the most talented designers and assorted team members to ever mod for civ(that includes the actual team that designed civ) and you guys are anything but lazy. I really feel ashamed of myself and of what I said, I mean if anything I'm the lazy a** I'm just playing your modmod, and I really do not have the right to critisize you for something I really have little understanding about.
I really hope you guys can forget my stupidity along with my barbarian issues(that are most likely just me not being as smart a gamer as I should be in planning military and strategic moves for my game). In the fuure, I'll try to stay off the forums if I get the urge to rave.

Please keep on doing the superb job that you have been doing on RiFE. I'm really looking foward to the continuation of RiFE, as is everyone else I've seen on the forum.

 

[Valkrionn]

All is forgiven.

And no, the barb issues were not your fault as a gamer; It was ours. Certain mechanics didn't work the way we wanted them to, and we're working on addressing this.

 

[Krieger66]

thank you
In the meantime I'll play w/o lairs(though raging barbs and barb world will be on to make it fair).