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Sweden

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by void_genesis, Jan 7, 2015.

  1. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  2. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

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    Yeah, I too played a recent Gustav game; even before the city changes I steamrolled the **** out of everything.

    Moderator Action: Please help us keep the forums family friendly by using appropriate language. Thanks. leif
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 12, 2019
  3. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

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    If melee land units can do this much, I guess melee ships with all city siege promotions can one-hit cities now.
     
  4. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Discussion is ongoing in the Zulu thread. Sweden and Zulu overlap considerably by being pure military-focused civs with tercio UUs. Vanilla civ has Caroleans as a Rifleman/Fusilier replacement; why was this changed to Tercios if the overlap with zulu is so considerable? It's somewhat anachronistic to have the Caroleans unlocking that early, but moving the Impi back from pikemen actually makes more sense to me than where it was.

    I know there is a problem with a Fusilier replacement causing issues with the Skola, because they unlock at opposite sides of the tree from each other. Maybe Skola and Carolean could be unlocked on the same tech then? Maybe Skola could get moved to rifling, or Carolean could be moved to Scientific Theory, or unlock earlier, like at Metallurgy or Economics?

    EDIT: went through the post history and found this conversation:
    So here is what I understand about this:
    • Tercios were arguably made obsolete in 1643.
    • Caroleans were active circa 1670-1721.
    • Fusiliers strike me as somewhat Napoleonic and American Revolutionary Wars (1803-1860)
    • Gustavus Adolphus made extensive use of modified Tercio formations during the 30 years war (1618-1648)
    so neither Tercios or Fuziliers quite fit because there is a 200 year gap between them. Of the available melee units quite fit the timeline for Caroleans, but we are talking about an infantry group that directly replaced tercios, which themselves were widely employed by the Swedish army. It seems like a missed roleplaying opportunity not to let Gustavus build his Tercios. Perhaps if Caroleans unlocked 1 tech earlier, that would be the best solution? That resolves the historical issue, and somewhat resolves the issue with spreading the unlock with skola.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2020
    cerk, CrazyG and Hinin like this.
  5. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    This makes sense as an alternative to changing the impi
     
  6. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Proposal:
    Swedish Carolean (Fusilier replacement)
    Unlocked at Metallurgy (1 tech earlier)
    600
    :c5production: (-25)
    41:c5strength:CS (+3)
    2 :c5moves:moves
    Field Works
    Formation I
    March
    Grenadiers
    (15 AOE damage on kill, up from 10)

    In effect, I'm proposing to move the Carolean 1 tech back, from Gunpowder to Metallurgy, and make them a Fusilier replacement.
    The Carolean would only get +3 CS (+8% more than 38), down from +4 CS (+16% more than 25), because we still want the mehal sefari to be the strongest rifleman at 42:c5strength:
    However, They would come earlier, (4:c5strength:CS stronger than the contemporary lancer), and be slightly cheaper. You would get early access to the Field Works promotion in comparison to other civs as well.
    Also, we should take the opportunity to boost Grenadiers, which is still only 10 on AOE kill, to make it at least competitive with Overrun. Overrun currently gives a major flanking bonus in addition to having 50% more AOE damage
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
    cerk, Hinin, chicorbeef and 2 others like this.
  7. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    Yeah, right now there are 3 offensive tercio units attached to warmonger civs, a Fusilier that unlocks earlier sounds good.
     
  8. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    my initial gut reaction...it’s a unit with 60% more CS than any other unit at its time, does super damage on kills, and basically heals the small damage it takes through March.

    So I think you would have the similar naga mala problem before we nerfed it, an utterly unstoppable rush with literally no counters.

    that said I’m not opposed to trying out the concept...with various CS tweaks to find the right version.

    On grenadiers, check me on this, Doesn’t it stack with overrrun? I don’t feel it competes with the promotion just another way to get it
     
    CrazyG likes this.
  9. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN Prince

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    Is it intended that Sweden's bonus XP doesn't apply to naval units? The UA says military units, which suggests naval units too, but it clearly isn't that way.
     
  10. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Prince

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    Played the first 150~200 turns of epic speed emperor game as Laser-Eyed kill everyone authority Sweden and i think this is my favourite warmonger civ and i could rank it above the Zulus even without getting to UU or UB at all because of how exceptional it is i think i might play the next match on immortal and see how i do with it.
    I actually eliminated two players (Aurhority Rome and Tradition Greece with a walled capital and a bunch of hoplites and archers) by turn 130
    Hero worship was snatched by Montezuma so i rage quit tho .... Time to restart i guess.
     
  11. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN Prince

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    Just go take Hero Worship from Montezuma.
     
    chicorbeef likes this.
  12. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    Yeah, or just go without it. You don't need it. You can still enhance a Religion if you stole one from Rome or Greece, or just kill the next civ.

    Sweden is a beast, even on Deity. I stole an Religion with an unrelated Founder belief in my game (Divine Inheritance) and still got into a dominant position.
     
  13. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN Prince

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    This^^

    Sweden is one of the few civilizations with strong enough bonuses to warmonger even on deity when anti-warmonger gets to +75%.
     
  14. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Prince

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    I actually founded second and the snowball started rolling but ughhhh i do want hero worship so i restarted and also founded second but this time after Songhai that also founded with hero worship.
    Time to restart i guess ‍♀️
     
  15. andersw

    andersw King

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    I've started several games as Sweden where I've raged quit because of this (montezuma is rediculous fast at forming a religion), last time I decided to roll with it and its not as good but works.
    On the upside you can better control the GG generation which is nice for the healing and once you reach industry and can faith buy generals ....
    If it IS the end of the world, conquer him and swap to his religion.
     
  16. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN Prince

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    Is it intended / is there a reason why: Sweden's GG spawns don't give XP to naval units as well?
     
  17. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  18. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN Prince

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    Thanks. The description of the UA isn't very specific, since it says military units generally, which is why I was wondering. I agree that Sweden is fine.
     
  19. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    You can still get like 5+ Generals pre-Industrial Era without Hero Worship just by fighting regularly. I get you want that crazy synergy but you don't need to throw away perfectly good games just because you missed a belief. Holy Law is a solid choice, along with Council of Elders and others.

    If you must get Hero Worship, you could try taking God of All Creation and intentionally not trying to found, just so you can steal an established Hero Worship Religion. This is kind of a gamble though.
     

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