Swedish UHVs

[Baldyr]

Another idea for Copenhagen would simply be to include the iron age settlement of Roskilde as an independent city on the 600AD map. (It could also spawn on a desired turn.) The city will of course change name to Copenhagen/Köpenhamn/whatever when it is conquered. No need for the Swedish civ to ever found the city - or to acquire it at all for that matter.

Speaking of Scandinavian cities, I personally like to found Gothenburg/Göteborg as an Fort (or Town, as Towns have the same benefits in my RFC), because it makes it possible to sail to Stockholm and the Baltic Sea without ever passing Denmark/Germany. (The Götakanal makes this waterway passable in real life, but it doesn't allow warships or anything like that.)

Gothenburg is, by the way, really a 17th century city. The main settlement on that spot before this time was actually Kungsbacka (Kongahälla) and may have been founded as early as the 10th century. This could be corrected in the citymap.

Stockholm should of course be preceded by Birka (8th century, while Stockholm is 13th century), and the Uranium tile up north should be Uppsala (another important viking settlement, unknown date).

Personally I would just sprinkle the map with Towns where ever historical sites are to be found (and cover everything in Forest, as it once was) so that the map isn't completely devoid of any sign of civilization when the first civs spawn. Even City Ruins on spots of previous settlement create ambiance, I think. (I'm talking about the 600AD map.)

 

[Cethegus]

Baldyr, would you happen to have any ideas for a Swedish UB? I was thinking a Soldier Tennant to replace Barracks (as in RFC:E), but I realized that given their UP, a Barracks would be rather useless. Given that I'm at a standstill here, since wanting it to be something they can use well in their timeframe (1300-1600), I can't make it Immigration Center either.

I'm not sure should I edit the last part out later on. :x

 

[veBear]

Check amra's sweden civ for Warlords. Maybe their "riksbank" could be an idea for swedish UB?

 

[Baldyr]

Baldyr, would you happen to have any ideas for a Swedish UB?

Now you've put me on the spot... Hmm... Maybe a 17th century urban fortification (with artillery) called the Skans (Sconce?). It would then be a Castle replacement that doesn't have it's defensive bonus nullified by gunpowder units (or at least not the earliest ones). Or it could have some alternative defensive benefit, like giving defending artillery a combat bonus. Or it could make the city immune to collateral damage. It could become obsolete with Military Science, or Artillery, or something.

There are two well known Skanses where I live:
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skansen_Kronan
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skansen_Lejonet

The Skans sound more like a UP, if when I think about it. Something to do with defensive bonuses when defending your home turf.

By the way, I'd say that the Golden Age of Sweden as a regional super power was 1611 to 1721.

Check amra's sweden civ for Warlords. Maybe their "riksbank" could be an idea for swedish UB?

The Riksbank was founded 1668 and is the worlds first federal reserve. It would make a great World Wonder, if it didn't overlap with the Federal Reserve event. (A generic Federal Reserve National Wonder would also work. It could alleviate inflation, just like the event.)

As a UB I really don't know what building it would be replacing either...

 

[Baldyr]

Thinking about it, it seems that the Swedish UP and UB does the same thing (allotment). Indirectly this is also closely associated with the UU (the same unit associated with this system and period). There really could be more diversity as to the civ's flavor.

The Skans is one idea, but thinking further about it, it should really just allow a minimum defense bonus for the city (say 25%). It wouldn't be possible to bombard the city defenses any further, regardless of what sort of siege units are used. I'm not sure how this would be accomplished, though.

Another idea, for the Modern Age, is the Surveillance Center (Security Bureau). Sweden was involved in signals surveillance during the Cold War and since the first of December the military intelligence also monitor all electronic communication passing the Swedish border. This is kinda unique, since it's not done in a covert fashion.

The benefit of the Surveillance Center could be that it reduces war weariness and/or promotes stability. Sweden has a reputation for monitoring its own citizens too...

Another idea for a UB would be the Botanical Garden, in memory of Carl von Linné (1707-1778). This could be a replacement for the Aqueduct. As for the bonus, it should be oriented. The Linnè Garden was actually founded before von Linné was born (in the 1660s, keeping with the same era).

If you're keeping the Soldier Tenant, it could be a Barrack that also gives experience for drafted units. That way the UP and the UB work together, instead of against each other.

 

[Cethegus]

The Skanse are a worthy notion with raised defense against bombardment. Because Chichen Itza's defense bonus is the only one that doesn't get obsolete upon the discovery of Gunpowder, greater bombardment bonus would give them a lasting asset. But given that, it makes me wonder how wise a choice that would be. They would become nigh impregnable much like the Russians and given them that much spotlight on the defense, it would seem unavoidable to not give them a "Don't lose city until X date" UHV.

I don't know how receiving experience from buildings upon draft could be implemented, nor am I sure if I want to. That would give them quite an edge against any foe, like the proposed defensive bonuses. And I don't want to go for the uncreative "-50% draft anger modifier" solution either, which would have to be coded by Panopticon too.

I'll take a closer look at these tomorrow, I'm a bit busy right now.

 

[Panopticon]

I'm happy to code anything, but you should really try it Cethegus, it's not difficult. As for the UU-UP-UB debate, maybe there should be a building that helps with one of the other UHV goals.

 

[Cethegus]

Alright. I'll have more time in a few weeks so I can look into it and spend more time with this project as well. i feel bad for having to be told that, so I'll give it my best.

One thing I noticed when I tried switching the civilization spots in the spawn list - each new spawning civ is equipped with a "slot" which dictates what country's identity they assume. In my game where Sweden was placed between France and England, they assumed the role of France and a bit surprisingly remained a one-city nation while France went Spain on the world and after founding Santander, they conquered South and Central America. Arabia and Turkey collapsed before 1775 AD. Modifying the Python files didn't seem to help so I'll try to solve this problem ASAP when I learn the appropriate skills.

Oh, and the current UHV list is as follows:
1. Control 8 luxury resources by 1650 AD -unconfirmed-
2. Control Finland, the Baltic countries and Ukraine by 1700 AD -confirmed-
3. Control the largest army in Europe in 1750 AD -confirmed-

Conditions #2 and #3 could be moved up one level and followed with a "Be the richest nation in 1800" condition as they historically were, although some 100 years later.

 

[Baldyr]

I really like my Botanical Garden idea since it's not a war oriented UB, and Linné is really a hugely influential historical figure. (He'd better be represented as a Great Scientist in the game!) It should have a more modern prerequisite than Engineering though (if it's a Aqueduct replacement). The Botanical Garden is a 16th century concept, by the way, and is associated with the great universities of Europe. The first Botanical Garden in the modern sense of the word was planted in 1540s, and the first one in Sweden was planted in 1665 (the Linné Garden).

I don't know if this brakes some kind of rule though, that all UB:s must be available in the same age than the building they're replacing. Another idea for a mod would, by the way, be to make all UB:s available before the generic building they're replacing. The more I think about this idea, the more I like it. Think of it like the Spanish UU - the Conquistador - a Cuiraisier that becomes available with Astrology.

Talking about mods, the Botanical Garden could also be a National wonder that requires a number of Universities. The effect could be an enhanced Great People rate in the host city. It might overlap with the National Park NW, though.

Another idea for a Swedish UP could be the Power of Compromise. This would have something to do with Civics changes, since Sweden managed to become a modern Western Democracy without a Civil War and without abolishing the Monarchy. (Sure, other countries have constitutional monarchies also, but the so called Swedish Revolution was a really minor incident which swiftly led to sweeping reforms. Sure, some people got killed, but there really wasn't any transition period of "Anarchy".)

Also, in the 80s there was some major compromising being made under the table, when the Government, the Industry and the Labor Unions were all covertly in bed together. Nobody likes an ugly confrontation!

Just throwing things out there, use whatever you like. Or don't.

 

[veBear]

You are right about the earlyer UU idea. I always thaught that the norse Berserker came all to late. The berserker roamed before the Maceman came in use, so why you need the same tecnologies to get them, i simply do not undrestand.

 

[Panopticon]

Alright. I'll have more time in a few weeks so I can look into it and spend more time with this project as well. i feel bad for having to be told that, so I'll give it my best.

One thing I noticed when I tried switching the civilization spots in the spawn list - each new spawning civ is equipped with a "slot" which dictates what country's identity they assume. In my game where Sweden was placed between France and England, they assumed the role of France and a bit surprisingly remained a one-city nation while France went Spain on the world and after founding Santander, they conquered South and Central America. Arabia and Turkey collapsed before 1775 AD. Modifying the Python files didn't seem to help so I'll try to solve this problem ASAP when I learn the appropriate skills.

Oh, and the current UHV list is as follows:
1. Control 8 luxury resources by 1650 AD -unconfirmed-
2. Control Finland, the Baltic countries and Ukraine by 1700 AD -confirmed-
3. Control the largest army in Europe in 1750 AD -confirmed-

Conditions #2 and #3 could be moved up one level and followed with a "Be the richest nation in 1800" condition as they historically were, although some 100 years later.

No, don't feel bad, it's just more useful to you if you can do DLL editing instantly than if we were working on it at the same time as other things.

I think the France-becoming-Spain effect might be something to do with Python referencing, but I'm not sure where that would happen.

 

[Baldyr]

You are right about the earlyer UU idea. I always thaught that the norse Berserker came all to late. The berserker roamed before the Maceman came in use, so why you need the same tecnologies to get them, i simply do not undrestand.

Thats why I've made the Berserker into a Axeman replacement for the Viking. But still, it could be a Maceman replacement that came to play before Civil Service...

 

[Cethegus]

I really like my Botanical Garden idea since it's not a war oriented UB, and Linné is really a hugely influential historical figure. (He'd better be represented as a Great Scientist in the game!) It should have a more modern prerequisite than Engineering though (if it's a Aqueduct replacement). The Botanical Garden is a 16th century concept, by the way, and is associated with the great universities of Europe. The first Botanical Garden in the modern sense of the word was planted in 1540s, and the first one in Sweden was planted in 1665 (the Linné Garden).

Well, you're right. RFC should allow the player to experiment different playing styles and expect to get the same results. I'll take the Botanical Garden under my wing for now and see where I can get with it. It would give a reason to bring back the Babylonian Garden's graphics too, but I'll take a look around the downloads database before resorting to that.

 

[Cethegus]

About the Botanical Garden; I was thinking about what Baldyr said about the Swedish UB candidates and I came to consider giving the Botanical Garden, if we are to go with it, a more versatile bonus rather than just '+10%' or '+1 Free Scientist'. If you choose to use it so, then of course it will matter not whether it gives a direct science bonus or not.

So, my idea is to make it give +10-25% which can be freely divided between the sliders as the player sees fit. If your interests shift from scientific advance to espionage, you can now disperse points to it more effectively. Due to the asset's nature, I'm not sure what amount would be appropriate; +25% is quite a large number, even in the poor North. Also, this would encourage the player to create a Cottage Economy, which is far from being Sweden's forte. Another option would be to make the Garden provide, for example, +5 directly, making it worth a Town in regular game without civic bonuses.

 

[BurnEmDown]

Well if you're suggesting that a player playing Sweden should choose a specialist economy over a cottage economy historically-wise then 1 free scientist sounds just about right. It's not too overpowered too since there are some UBs that give 1 free specialists and the Swedes could use all the help they can get staying in line with the rest of Europe's technologies.

 

[Baldyr]

I'm glad that you are considering my suggestion.

I'm not so sure about a bonus as such, though. A Botanical Garden seems to me more of a drain on assets than something that would generate wealth. (Historically they seem to have been sort of add-ons to Universities, themselves nothing you'd associate with trade or income.)

I'd suggest something like the Roman Forum, i.e. a bonus for generating (Carl von Linné, again). A free Scientist would do the trick, also. Maybe coupled with the option to hire additional ones.

 

[Cethegus]

I'm glad that you are considering my suggestion.

I'm not so sure about a bonus as such, though. A Botanical Garden seems to me more of a drain on assets than something that would generate wealth. (Historically they seem to have been sort of add-ons to Universities, themselves nothing you'd associate with trade or income.)

I'd suggest something like the Roman Forum, i.e. a bonus for generating (Carl von Linné, again). A free Scientist would do the trick, also. Maybe coupled with the option to hire additional ones.

Commerce in Civ 4 is just a basic element that generates either gold, science, culture or espionage, based on how it's distributed. In this case, the idea would be that the Garden would generate inspiration, usually in the form of science but not necessarily. I guess it's an idea better taken elsewhere.

So, back to the question of pure science. I suppose +1 Free Scientist (and the ability to hire one additional one) will be enough, since it covers both wanted areas - increased scientific output and tendency to generate more great people (scientists) by default. If the required technology is moved from Mathematics and Masonry to Engineering and Aesthetics (they start with Aesthetics anyway), it should give them a position similiar to industrializing Russia in the 19th century; once they get themselves going, they'll keep progressing at a steady pace.

Very well, it's decided; unless balance issues bring it up later on, the Swedish UB will be Botanical Garden, which the unique benefits of +1 Free Scientist, one additional scientist for hire, +1 culture and changed tech requirement (Engineering).

 

[Baldyr]

I tried making the Swedes start in 800 AD by modifying Consts.py, AIWars.py, CityNameManager.py and RiseAndFall.py files and even the RFC maps a bit. This, however, resulted in an unsatisfactory result: the game ignored my newly configured starting date and insusted that I still start in 600 AD (instead of 800 AD) in the 600 AD start - with one sole catapult in the Antarctic. I made sure to move the Viking entries from between Maya and Arabia to between France and England and set starting date as 800 AD, but still this happens.

I'm currently messing around with the Russians and I also get the old starting date with a lone catapult in Antarctica (plot 0, 0) when I try to change the spawn date (in Consts.py). Clearly we're missing something here... Does anybody know how to actually do this?

I was also wondering if part of a solution would be to define the new date like:

i800AD = 201

It didn't help me any with the Russians, though.

 

[Airrifle48942]

1. Never lose a city to the Germans or Russians before 1940 CE.
2. Ensure that there is no foreign culture present on Scandinavia (or Finland).
3. Found at least 8 extra-European colonies.

 

[alpav]

Why? The thread is three years old.