T_McC02 - The Forbidden Traits (Emp, Cont)
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romeothemonk
Order of the Engineer
My thoughts exactly.
I am not sure that I get to start the fun, but I will get us ready for them
I am not sure that I get to start the fun, but I will get us ready for them
We may need to switch back to Organized Religion when we make the Nationalism switch for drafting to boost our relations with Toku enough to get him to agree to war (if we haven't bribed him to stop trading with Isabella yet, we may also have to do this first too). Theocracy is also an option, as it would allow us to build Cannons with two promotions, although drafted Janissaries would only have 3 experience.
Make sure to make any deals with the other continent before doing this, as reverting back to Toku's religion will hurt our relations there.
Make sure to make any deals with the other continent before doing this, as reverting back to Toku's religion will hurt our relations there.
romeothemonk
Order of the Engineer
In the interest of staying married, I am not able to play this game at this time. A swap/skip would be more appropriate.
Well, it isn't that severe, but it would involve me sleeping on the couch, which isn't my primary choice of sleeping location.
Well, it isn't that severe, but it would involve me sleeping on the couch, which isn't my primary choice of sleeping location.
romeothemonk
Order of the Engineer
Thanks T_McC. I can peruse the forums just fine. (It beats working), but I have a limited amount of time at home. I am still willing to play in this SG, but it almost works better if I can be a "weekend warrior" and play my turns on the weekend.
1400 AD (0)
Make lots of changes as detailed in my previous post.
1410 AD (1)
Trade units with Monte on the IT, call the war off. He pays 20 gold, WM and 5 gpt for peace. We should get the circumnavigation bonus on the next IT.
1420 AD (2)
I guess someone else circled the globe first. Huh.
Whip Theater in Tlatelolco. If the city does flip, we'll leave a lot of carcasses behind. Current risk: 2.29%. I think starving it down to size 1 and growing back with Turks will reduce the risk.
Since the circumnavigation bonus is gone, trade our WM around for 400+ gold.
1430 AD (3)
Printing Press in, go for Replaceable Parts hoping we can trade for Gunpowder.
Whip Theatre in Icy Fish. Theatre completes in Tlatelolco, revolt risk down to 1.43%. With two forced Artists, the city makes 32 cpt and will starve to size 1 next turn. Then we free up tiles for it again.
1440 AD (4)
Reported flip risk in Tlatelolco is now 0%.
Starvation still works wonders. Allow the city one more turn with a forced entertainer, then we can start growing to coincide with the 100-culture border pop.
1450 AD (5)
Roosevelt declares war on Monte.
1460 AD (6)
Tlatalolco has its 100-culture pop and now controls the cow + other tiles. Time to grow.
1470 AD (7)
We pop a Copper near Border Fight.
1480 AD (8)
Replaceable Parts in, start on Nationalism. Retaining hope we can trade for Gunpowder.
Izzy starts a GA via Taj Mahal.
1490 AD (9)
Now Toku declares on Monte. In a separate event, Toku starts a GA.
No good deals exist for Nationalism and Gunpowder is still not available.
1500 AD (10)
Nothing much happens.
Final Notes:
The flip threat at Tlatelolco is over. We won't get a lot of tiles, though, without a war on Izzy.
Monte is going to get reamed by Toku. We may want to join in to expedite Monte's demise, which coincidentally will free up Toku for another war. We need Nationalism, Gunpowder, and Rifling to be in a position to draft our UU. We should have enough money for 4-5 Maceman upgrades as well. I did not make Toku and Izzy stop trading, but this could be accomplished with Liberalism. I didn't do it yet because I didn't want us to have to do it twice before a war could break out. Izzy does not have a supply of Horses, so there should be very few Conquistadors in her army.
Thanks to the Copper the Heroic Epic will complete next turn in Border Fight. More culture, and a doubling of troop production rate. In 4 turns we will either get a Great Scientist or a Great Engineer from Iznik. The Observatory will let us run a third scientist when we choose. Icy Fish may be trying for an Artist.
Our first Lumbermills come online soon, and we should have three cities able to build troops for the next 10 turns. I would figure we are still 10 turns from our UU unless the Great Person wants to research Rifling or the AI is less stingy with Gunpowder. Since we have Copper the Statue of Liberty is in play for us.
Make lots of changes as detailed in my previous post.
1410 AD (1)
Trade units with Monte on the IT, call the war off. He pays 20 gold, WM and 5 gpt for peace. We should get the circumnavigation bonus on the next IT.
1420 AD (2)
I guess someone else circled the globe first. Huh.
Whip Theater in Tlatelolco. If the city does flip, we'll leave a lot of carcasses behind. Current risk: 2.29%. I think starving it down to size 1 and growing back with Turks will reduce the risk.
Since the circumnavigation bonus is gone, trade our WM around for 400+ gold.
1430 AD (3)
Printing Press in, go for Replaceable Parts hoping we can trade for Gunpowder.
Whip Theatre in Icy Fish. Theatre completes in Tlatelolco, revolt risk down to 1.43%. With two forced Artists, the city makes 32 cpt and will starve to size 1 next turn. Then we free up tiles for it again.
1440 AD (4)
Reported flip risk in Tlatelolco is now 0%.
Starvation still works wonders. Allow the city one more turn with a forced entertainer, then we can start growing to coincide with the 100-culture border pop.1450 AD (5)
Roosevelt declares war on Monte.
1460 AD (6)
Tlatalolco has its 100-culture pop and now controls the cow + other tiles. Time to grow.
1470 AD (7)
We pop a Copper near Border Fight.
1480 AD (8)
Replaceable Parts in, start on Nationalism. Retaining hope we can trade for Gunpowder.
Izzy starts a GA via Taj Mahal.
1490 AD (9)
Now Toku declares on Monte. In a separate event, Toku starts a GA.
No good deals exist for Nationalism and Gunpowder is still not available.
1500 AD (10)
Nothing much happens.
Final Notes:
The flip threat at Tlatelolco is over. We won't get a lot of tiles, though, without a war on Izzy.
Monte is going to get reamed by Toku. We may want to join in to expedite Monte's demise, which coincidentally will free up Toku for another war. We need Nationalism, Gunpowder, and Rifling to be in a position to draft our UU. We should have enough money for 4-5 Maceman upgrades as well. I did not make Toku and Izzy stop trading, but this could be accomplished with Liberalism. I didn't do it yet because I didn't want us to have to do it twice before a war could break out. Izzy does not have a supply of Horses, so there should be very few Conquistadors in her army.
Thanks to the Copper the Heroic Epic will complete next turn in Border Fight. More culture, and a doubling of troop production rate. In 4 turns we will either get a Great Scientist or a Great Engineer from Iznik. The Observatory will let us run a third scientist when we choose. Icy Fish may be trying for an Artist.
Our first Lumbermills come online soon, and we should have three cities able to build troops for the next 10 turns. I would figure we are still 10 turns from our UU unless the Great Person wants to research Rifling or the AI is less stingy with Gunpowder. Since we have Copper the Statue of Liberty is in play for us.
sol is like 2250 shields right? unless we get a great engineer to rush 60% of it, it will still take over 20 turns i assume? which pretty much will end up during our war against izzy.
another note: do we want more city from monte to speed up the process in freeing toku from fighting ?
another note: do we want more city from monte to speed up the process in freeing toku from fighting ?
Excellent play, as always T McC. Always a joy to SG with the master. 
"We pop a Copper near Border Fight."
"Izzy starts a GA via Taj Mahal."
We are in severe jeopardy of a very nasty sneak from Isabella, that at this point would be game over. We'd better find someone else for her to fight, and soon. If borders are still open, may be a good time to do some recon. I'd go ahead and bribe to Toku to quit trading, as they are unlikely to renew ties with different religions and the "quit trading" penalty.
Then again, things might just be coming to a very auspicious head. We're in a race to get rifling before Isabella sneaks. If we do, and she does, she could be in for a nasty surprise.
Statue of Liberty costs 1500 hammers. It can be built by hand, but not easily (I remember building it in the 1000AD scenario in high food, low hammer London, and it started out at 84 turns to complete.
). An engineer helps, but Istanbul and our southern city should both be able to handle it if we can get the tech in time (and develop that city in time - no more whips there pls). I don't know if I ever remember the AI building it in my games (largely because I tend to prioritize it), so we should have a shot.
I wouldn't sweat gunpowder too much, as it should be pretty cheap to research ourselves as I'm assuming its widely known by now. The problem we're having is that we're pursuing a well-worn research path for the AI, and we're probably hitting the "too advanced" ceiling, due to all our past trades and the lack of really good friends.
"We pop a Copper near Border Fight."
"Izzy starts a GA via Taj Mahal."
We are in severe jeopardy of a very nasty sneak from Isabella, that at this point would be game over. We'd better find someone else for her to fight, and soon. If borders are still open, may be a good time to do some recon. I'd go ahead and bribe to Toku to quit trading, as they are unlikely to renew ties with different religions and the "quit trading" penalty.
Then again, things might just be coming to a very auspicious head. We're in a race to get rifling before Isabella sneaks. If we do, and she does, she could be in for a nasty surprise.
Statue of Liberty costs 1500 hammers. It can be built by hand, but not easily (I remember building it in the 1000AD scenario in high food, low hammer London, and it started out at 84 turns to complete.
). An engineer helps, but Istanbul and our southern city should both be able to handle it if we can get the tech in time (and develop that city in time - no more whips there pls). I don't know if I ever remember the AI building it in my games (largely because I tend to prioritize it), so we should have a shot.I wouldn't sweat gunpowder too much, as it should be pretty cheap to research ourselves as I'm assuming its widely known by now. The problem we're having is that we're pursuing a well-worn research path for the AI, and we're probably hitting the "too advanced" ceiling, due to all our past trades and the lack of really good friends.
We could do a switch to Nationalism/Theocracy once we get gunpower (via trade or research) and build the bulk of our army while we are reserching up to democracy. Then when demo comes we switch to Beauracracy and OrgRel (and Representation) to build the SoL at Istanbul while we are at war. Copper + Beaurcracy + OrgRel + High Production Istanbul = SoL in no time.
We need rifling, which is pricey, following gunpowder. Alternatively, we could research democracy while waiting for a trade for gunpowder to come up at last civ pricing. Is consitution available yet? Are we in free market? It would be nice to try those Istanbul-maximizing civics, but we may need to go back to free religion to repair relations with the other continent, and I hate to lose the free speech culture/commerce bonus.
Bezhukov said:
I'd say it's the opposite problem. Gunpowder isn't that widely known and the only two civs that have it don't want to trade it. We're researching Nationalism at 5th. It was available for trade, but not at a reasonable price. The good news/bad news is that I figure we've caught the AIs in lockstep down the civics path. So probably not a lot of folks are pursuing Gunpowder.
We can't research Rifling without Gunpowder so we are likely to do self-research on both. We don't know whether Constitution is available because we haven't researched the pre-requisite. We should still have a monopoly on Printing Press (and thus Replaceable Parts). The AI will have to backtrack to our techs in order to research Democracy.
So ... the opportunity is rather obvious. We will be the first to Rifling unless we get distracted by chasing Civics. Once Janissaries hit the scene Izzy's (and Monte's, and Toku's) entire military becomes obsolete. The worst matchup we can have in the field is vs. a Mace, where we'll have a ~2:1 advantage. Spain is one of the civs with Gunpowder. Good. Muskets are worse vs. Janissaries than Maces.
We don't need to get to Cannons until someone else has Rifling. All we need is 4 Cats promoted to Accuracy and we can take city defenses to 0% in one turn. We probably don't have the Cats promoted that way, so maybe we need 6 Cats instead. I think we already have 6 Cats.
So long as we bomb out the city defenses the worst possible matchup we could have in a city is a City Defense III Musket, fortified on a Hill, vs. a drafted Janissary. And that matchup is 16 vs. 18. The worst realistic scenario should be a City Defense II Musket on flat ground vs. a drafted Janissary, with odds of 16 vs. 13.75. Since we can upgrade a lot of units that have already been promoted, suicide artillery should be superfluous.
Don't overestimate Tlatelolco. That city won't be building anything big anytime soon. Not just because of the whip, but because the tiles aren't configured for production, and most of the tiles are still Spanish. For that city to thrive we must control the Spanish city applying cultural pressure.
Not sure anyone has actually studied flip chances. Appeared to me that the flip chance went away once we had a higher pop % in Tlatelolco than did the Spanish. May argue that starvation of captured cities is the way to suppress flipping.
I don't believe that maces get their +50% vs melee bonus vs our UU, since Janissaries are gunpowder, not melee units. Longbows on hills with extra city defense are still no pushovers, but its about the best you're going to get without suicide artillery or bombers. Don't forget, however, that she'll be sending at least 10 suicide cats against our units too, unless we can get her to burn units against Monty or Toku.
I agree that we can wait for the civic techs. How about switching right now to gunpowder and trading for the rest of nationalism when it finishes?
If we farm all Tlat's tiles, it should recover its pop pretty quickly, ,and I believe it has enough food to support several mines/workshops to produce the necessary hammers to get infra up quickly as well. This all assumes we clear the tiles via conquest.
Who's up?
I agree that we can wait for the civic techs. How about switching right now to gunpowder and trading for the rest of nationalism when it finishes?
If we farm all Tlat's tiles, it should recover its pop pretty quickly, ,and I believe it has enough food to support several mines/workshops to produce the necessary hammers to get infra up quickly as well. This all assumes we clear the tiles via conquest.
Who's up?
Janissaries also receive +25% vs. Gunpowder, hence Muskets being worse than Maces.
Longbows on Hills are equal to Muskets, or maybe a little better. Hmmm ... Garrison III + 100% for Hill/City defense = 275% of 6 = 16.5 ... not quite as good as a Musket, but with a 1st strike.
It doesn't appear to me that the AI will discount a tech you are already researching. Otherwise we should have been able to trade for Nationalism already.
I'll have to look up how collateral damage is calculated. If a "to-hit" roll is involved in any fashion catapults shouldn't do squat against strength 16 units. She may use 10 cats, but she may only do 10% damage.
If Romeo can only play on the weekend, Sharog is up.
Longbows on Hills are equal to Muskets, or maybe a little better. Hmmm ... Garrison III + 100% for Hill/City defense = 275% of 6 = 16.5 ... not quite as good as a Musket, but with a 1st strike.
It doesn't appear to me that the AI will discount a tech you are already researching. Otherwise we should have been able to trade for Nationalism already.
I'll have to look up how collateral damage is calculated. If a "to-hit" roll is involved in any fashion catapults shouldn't do squat against strength 16 units. She may use 10 cats, but she may only do 10% damage.
If Romeo can only play on the weekend, Sharog is up.
ic, i will play friday noon if romeo still cant play.
did we check if anyone is selling izzy horses? cuz then we will be meeting some conquisitors, and dont we have several cityraider II / III maces? those will be pretty strong once we upgrade them to rifles
pS: shall we sign up to war monty again? even though just declare and not attacking will give us bonus mutual military effort bonus with toku, and that extra relation boost might be just enough for us to get permanent tech trade with him or get him to war Izzy.
did we check if anyone is selling izzy horses? cuz then we will be meeting some conquisitors, and dont we have several cityraider II / III maces? those will be pretty strong once we upgrade them to rifles
pS: shall we sign up to war monty again? even though just declare and not attacking will give us bonus mutual military effort bonus with toku, and that extra relation boost might be just enough for us to get permanent tech trade with him or get him to war Izzy.
Yeah, but if we wait until we're done with gunpowder, nationalism might be more widely known then too. Probably six of one, half dozen of the other. At least the AI aren't ganging up too badly to trade techs among themselves, it seems. We'd be better just to wait until Toku invites us, as declaring could increase the odds of an Isabella sneak. Depending on what units Isabella does have - if we have open borders we can check - we may need a few xbows in case she does sneak.
sorry guys, weekend parties ;D dont want to get caught playing civ4 under influence aight.
anywayz, i just finished my turns, some good news and bad news and some changing of plans.
good news is i managed to trade gunpowder from peter for a cheap tech and then got us rifle just before end of my turns. so most of the highshield cities are mm'ed for maximum shield output
bad news is that Izzy managed to get Military tradition, and she also has gunpowder so which means we will be facing calvary soon.
Peter invites us to war monte, after some consideration, i decided to redeclare on him because peter, roosevelt, and toku are warring him right now, by declaring him will get us some serious relation boost that we need.
also, i found 2 cities that is quite profitable if we manage to capture it, monty is already drained from his resources so it shouldnt be much of a problem.
our assault force is already in place, suffered some counter artillary bombardment but should be fine since monty barely has over 4 unit defending in both of the cities. how ever, we need to move forward fast because toku is sending alot army down south.
o yes, another good news, TATA:
since istanbul is our most powerful researchcity, i built an arcademy there.
PS: i miss looked and moved one group of units after my turn ended...
anywayz, i just finished my turns, some good news and bad news and some changing of plans.
good news is i managed to trade gunpowder from peter for a cheap tech and then got us rifle just before end of my turns. so most of the highshield cities are mm'ed for maximum shield output
bad news is that Izzy managed to get Military tradition, and she also has gunpowder so which means we will be facing calvary soon.
Peter invites us to war monte, after some consideration, i decided to redeclare on him because peter, roosevelt, and toku are warring him right now, by declaring him will get us some serious relation boost that we need.
also, i found 2 cities that is quite profitable if we manage to capture it, monty is already drained from his resources so it shouldnt be much of a problem.
our assault force is already in place, suffered some counter artillary bombardment but should be fine since monty barely has over 4 unit defending in both of the cities. how ever, we need to move forward fast because toku is sending alot army down south.
o yes, another good news, TATA:
since istanbul is our most powerful researchcity, i built an arcademy there.
PS: i miss looked and moved one group of units after my turn ended...
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