Tactics and Strategy T80-90

[Kaleb]

Got some decisions to make next turn!!

Like what to build in Hazrat-e for a start.

If we get Lit on T90 then we can get GL by T103 by my reckoning. But we'll run out of cash before we can get Lit so only way I can see us getting Lit by T90 is to produce research.

One option is to produce research in Haz for 1 turn and build an Archer (2 turns) as Haz will reach happy cap when it grows anyway and this way we'll have finished production before starting GL.

But there are lots of options. Can people please help me test/make suggestions.

We also need to decide what to do with the new worker and our Chariots.

 

[mikotian]

Don't have any suggestions for Kaleb's post but I just want to say that the barb city may turn out to be a blessing in disguise. It looks like it might be in one of the spots where we were going to build a city anyway. If we are lucky we may even grab a barb worker or something from it.

 

[mikotian]

If anyone is interested I was able to get GL built by T101 instead of 103.

Here is generally what I did in order:
T87: research at 100%
instead of chariot, start monument in Hazrat-e

T88: In Hazrat-e, pull a citizen off the 4 hammer 1 gold mine, and run a scientist for 1 turn--this enables us to finish Lit in time, and postpones finishing the monument for 1 turn to maximize hammer overflow into GL. This does not delay the pop growth in Hazrat-e
Oskemen finishes building warrior, run research. Put a citizen on cows which just finished building.
Worker produced in Actau goes to hill SW of Hazrat-e to build a mine

T89: Pull scientist in capital and work the mine again.
It might be necessary to run research in Aktau and Shymkent. In my testing, I was able to finish Lit while running research only in Oskemen and Shymkent. This required a bit of adjusting on tiles worked for Pav and Aktau however. Bottom line is that it's fully doable without touching Oskemen and Atyrau.
Oskemen finishes the missionary and starts an axe.
Worker building farm next to Pav moves to woods N of Hazrat and prepares to chop
Workers near Atyrau finish roading the iron. They should probably move to help improve Shymkent. We should also considering chopping the tundra forest next to Atyrau with 1 worker so we can get a workboat the second borders pop.

T90: Lit finishes, Hazrat starts GL. Pop grows. Hazrat uses all the mines around it. GL shows 22 turns to completion.
All cities stop producing research
Worker continues chopping woods
Research back to 0%

T91: mine SW of Hazrat finishes. Pull citizen off the 4 gold cottage and begin working the mine

T92: First Hazrat chop finishes.
Move 2nd Hazrat worker to woods E or NE of Hazrat and prepare to chop

T93: Move 1st Hazrat to remaining patch of woods and prepare to chop
2nd Hazrat worker begins chopping

T94-T95: Nothing happens, basically keep chopping trees

T96:worker finishes chopping. Move him to the desert hill NE of Hazrat and prepare to build a mine

T97: 2nd worker finishes chopping. Move him to the desert hill as well.

T98: Nothing special

T99: Desert hill mine is finished. Move a worker to it. Hazrat-e is starving slightly, but GL is 2 turns to completion at this point.




It may be no big deal, but this is the fastest way I've found to complete the GL in case we are rushing for time. This method however costs us slightly in commerce since we are pulling some citizens from cottages in Hazrat to build the GL. Also, we are spending a few hammers (maybe 20-30) to help finish Lit. Lastly, we spent some hammers on building a monument in Hazrat (30 hammers -25% OR discount. So 22 or so hammers total)

 

[Kaleb]

Thanks for that miko - what do people think then??

Shall we go all out for GL asap? How soon do we think SANCTA might pop a great person?

 

[donsig]

Yes, go all out for G Lib.

 

[damnrunner]

Running a scienist in Aktau could mess up the plan of getting the fast great prophet there. I don't think we should rush like this as we do not face ayone else getting the GL 1st.

Also it really is a waste to invest hammers in a monumet in Haz.

 

[Indiansmoke]

I suggest to make archer for hapiness instead of monumet in capital and not run any scientists in actau, we need prophet there. 1 turn later GL is not a problem, noone else will get it as fast.

 

[Kaleb]

SANCTA completed Oracle on turn 56. They could have started a Forge on Turn 56.

The Oracle will generate a Great Prophet on Turn 106 if they don't run a specialist in the same city as the Oracle or produce a GP elsewhere.

If they run an Engineer it will take 34 turns to spawn the first GE. It's quite feasible that SANCTA could have built a Forge by turn 66 meaning they could have a 100% certain GE by turn 100. They could do this easily have done this in Inner Sanctum. Although we didn't see a Forge in IS on Turn 64 which was when the city was last seen.

Assuming we get GL in Turn 103 SANCTA will have had to have built a forge and run an engineer at the latest by turn 68 if they want to be 100% certain of getting a GE.

If they build a Forge in the same city as the Oracle they can also get a GE but depend on the RNG.

Example: Running an engineer 20 turn afters the Oracle would generate a GP on turn 88 (i.e. next turn) This would have a 36% chance of being a GE. Every turn we go past this the odds of getting a GE decrease. But still, c30% is not bad odds.

So conclusion: If SANCTA really want to beat us to the GL, they can, and there's nothing we can do about it. Chance of this are slim though but every turn we delay increases the chances.

Of course other scenarios include SANCTA building a library and running a scientist alongside an engineer. But SANCTA only got Writing on Turn 78 so this won't make much difference. If they ran a Sci alongisde the Engineer it would mean they get a GP earlier but would reduce the % of it being a GE.

Turn update
Ben Hur was very unlucky and died to the Barb Axe (2 remaining). I attacked and killed one warrior with a chariot and brought the other 2 Chariots to the same spot.

We'll soon have the whole western end of the enclave fogbusted so barb can only get at us from the valley.

 

[Indiansmoke]

It is very unlikely they will get GE, they would have to chop/slave forge pretty fast in other city than capital or get lucjy with RNG.

But you are right there is a chance they do....not much we can do about it. However they will still have to get aesthetics and literature in time.

 

[Kaleb]

They seem to be trying to get Philosophy from Cav and they asked about it from us too, hence why I'm wondering if they are going to give it a go.

Let's have a look at the demographics to see if we can work out when the forge might have been built...

 

[Kaleb]

SANCTA don't have slavery so it must have taken a while to build the forge. Inner Sanctum has 6 visible and no forest in BFC. It's quite reasonable to assume they have at least one more mine and a production of 12:hammers.

Forge is 120 - so I'm sure they could have built one in Inner Sanctum before Turn 70. If they run an engineer then they'll have it ready around the time we get GL. They also have time to get Aest and Lit before T103.

So how about we aim for completing GL on T102 or 103? Hopefully that will be enough!

A forge increases the solder value by 2000 and will increase Mfg. In the 65-75 turn range there are a numer of times a forge could have been built. But I don't have time to go through everything in so much detail to try and work out exactly if and when.

 

[Kaleb]

p.s. I think we should go for an Archer in Haz as it's something we need anyway and still give us some overflow it we try to build GL in T103 or T102.

 

[Indiansmoke]

I agree with archer in capital.

PS a forge does not increase Mfg. Unlike GNP hammer multipliers are not taker into account for Mfg...only base hammers.

 

[damnrunner]

PS a forge does not increase Mfg. Unlike GNP hammer multipliers are not taker into account for Mfg...only base hammers.

Really. Does that also include resource multipliers such as copper for the Colossus?


If that is the case it means we are way behind sanctca on hammer production.

 

[mikotian]

I agree with archer in capital.

PS a forge does not increase Mfg. Unlike GNP hammer multipliers are not taker into account for Mfg...only base hammers.

that's really strange... and doesn't seem true.
Anecdotally, whenever I build the Three Gorges wonder, my mfg always jumps immediately, as all my factories become powered... And also, when I build a lot of factories, my mfg always seem to go up in tandem too.

Can anyone confirm?

 

[Indiansmoke]

This is from this thread

"Mfg. Goods- The Manufactured Goods is the total of the production you produce on each turn. The raw production is the total hammers you get from each worked tile and specialists, however unlike commerce this does include the effects from city improvements like forges and factories etc. The hammer column on the F1 screen reflects this number."

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=163098

I am not sure but I think multipliers like copper for colosus do count, only city improvements don't.

 

[Indiansmoke]

What are we doing next turn?

Capital
Archer is ready in 1 and literature in 2. Switch to lighthouse for 1 turn? Or Research for 1 turn in capital? If we can get literature in 2 without building research in any city then lighthouse for 1 turn..if not then research for 1 turn.

Actau
slave chariot? If it grows in one turn after slave back to pop 3 we should slave. Worker from actau go mine plains hill in capital.

 

[Kaleb]

I think the Mfg stat in demographics was changed after the last patch to include modifiers. I'll have a look later but I'm fairly sure of this.

re: next turn
I think we need to discuss the following.

Aktau:
If we wait a turn and then whip chariot it will recover the pop in 1 turn, so I think we should wait a turn before whipping. We then build temple.

New Worker mines hill for Haz - agree

Hazrat-e
The Archer is ready in 1 turns, so we should produce research for 1 turn and then finish the archer the turn after to get the overflow into the GL. We'll need to produce research in another city to complete Lit in 2 turns.

Are we happy to slow Hazrat-e's growth to try and build GL a turn earlier? ie. Turn 102.

Oskemen
We've finished our last warrior, what next? How about our first Axeman!

The worker on the cow will finish the pasture on the coming turn. What next?

Pavlodar
We're about to finish the Jewish Missionary but we don't need it just yet. Rather than building it and paying maintenance how about we make a start on the Confucian missionary and finish the Jewish mish just when we need to?

Atyrau
If we want to build the wb here we won't have time to finish the granary before the first pop growth. How about we chop a forest with one of the worker pair after they've finished the corn farm?

 

[Kaleb]

Btw I just did another test run. We can comfortably get GL in turn 102 but it will be at the expense of city growth and science. Pavlodar will work the shared cottage tile while Haz makes use of all of the mines as early as possible.

We can also do a 2 pop whip to get GL on turn 101 if we get desperate.

Let's just keep an eye out on SANCTA!

 

[damnrunner]

Btw I just did another test run. We can comfortably get GL in turn 102 but it will be at the expense of city growth and science. Pavlodar will work the shared cottage tile while Haz makes use of all of the mines as early as possible.

We can also do a 2 pop whip to get GL on turn 101 if we get desperate.

Let's just keep an eye out on SANCTA!

If we do a 2 pop whip how much hammer overflow do we get? Using that to finish a lighthouse will mean that our population will recover faster.

However I think that we will not want to do this as once we get the GL we will want to work all of the cottages on the newly chopped grassland river tiles.