Take that Kim Jong!

[Formaldehyde]

How did North Korea get the bomb, and why does it matter:


Link to video.

 

[MobBoss]

Give me one good reason I should waste my time on that.

 

[Old Hippy]

... you might learn something... just guessing

 

[kramerfan86]

So did this guy go in on his own and sneak footage or did he go on one of the sham North Korean tours? If its the latter then its really a waste of everyone's time

 

[Old Hippy]

So did this guy go in on his own and sneak footage or did he go on one of the sham North Korean tours? If its the latter then its really a waste of everyone's time

even the sham tours tell you alot ... like the empty 6 lane highways(day in,day out)or the International Hotel dinning room set up for 100's of guests while the lone Tourist is served and then the food is taken back afterwards. it really depends on how discerning one is...

 

[Formaldehyde]

So did this guy go in on his own and sneak footage or did he go on one of the sham North Korean tours? If its the latter then its really a waste of everyone's time

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to simply watch the video and find out for yourself?

Google Tech Talk (more info below)
March 28, 2011

Presented by Siegfried S. Hecker, Center for International Security and Cooperation, Stanford University

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siegfried_Hecker

Dr. Siegfried S. Hecker, PhD, is an Austrian-Polish-American nuclear scientist and metallurgist who served as the Emeritus Director of the Los Alamos National Laboratory from 1986 till 1997. A nuclear weapons specialist, Dr. Hecker was the Professor in Research in the Department of Management Science and Engineering of the School of Engineering, Co-Director of the Center for International Security and Cooperation and a Senior Fellow of the at the Freeman Spogli Institute for International Studies of Stanford University.[1]

He has visited North Korea frequently in an unofficial capacity to assess the plutonium program at the Yongbyon Nuclear Scientific Research Center (once every year since 2004).[3][4] In November 2010 Hecker visited the Yongbyon nuclear facility and reported on its advanced state.[5]

His achievements have been recognized with the American Nuclear Society's Seaborg Medal and many other awards including the Navy League of the U.S.'s TR & FD Roosevelt Gold Medal for Science Award in 1996. The Secretary of Energy named Dr. Siegfried S. Hecker, Lab director from 1986–1997 and a Los Alamos senior fellow until 2000, co-recipient of the 2009 Enrico Fermi Award. This Presidential Award is one of the oldest and most prestigious given by the U.S. Government and carries an honorarium of $375,000. He shares the honor with John Bannister Goodenough, a professor at the University of Texas at Austin.

Unlike any of us, he is just an expert on the topic.

 

[kramerfan86]

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to simply watch the video and find out for yourself?

Really, watching an 80 minute long video is easier than you answering a question? its one thing to post 5 minute videos and expect people to watch them to make a point but full movies is a bit ridiculous.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Watching the first few minutes, or going to youtube to ascertain what the video is about, is harder than posting a question and awaiting a response?

And I don't really expect people to take the effort to learn more about a society they really know nothing about before discussing the issues on that topic. I know that from past experience in this very forum.

 

[Andvare]

Oh dear GNU, how horrible it is to watch an hour long educational video. Yes, it is very unreasonable to expect people to educate themselves in areas they want to have an opinion, that should have any weight at all, instead of just getting the easy, abridged, answers.
Yes, that was sarcasm.

He does answer your question though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIdRSl7Dc88&feature=player_detailpage


I still say it is naïve to think that DPRK wouldn't have gone for the bomb, if Bush didn't FUBAR the US foreign relations for internal reasons (boy was he, and his staff, ever a disaster).
However, it would probably have taken the DPRK quite a bit longer to get where it is today.
Remember the rather large internal problems the DPRK had? The drought caused some measure of unrest, and they would have been forced to squeeze the lemon a bit, to get the help required to quell that unrest.

I am actually on the side with the hardliners, well, at least now. I see no reason to help or negotiate the DPRK regime anymore, as I think the ship for the opening of the DPRK has sailed. Of course, that is quite easy for me to say, I stand to lose absolutely nothing.

One can hope that a future (hopefully near future) internal powerstruggle, after the youngone, will break the regime.

 

[Glassfan]

...I still say it is naïve to think that DPRK wouldn't have gone for the bomb, if Bush didn't FUBAR the US foreign relations for internal reasons (boy was he, and his staff, ever a disaster).

The North Korean atom bomb program goes back to the 1990's (Bill Clinton), long before W became president, and they're still using it now during Obama's term. The NK's have been using it as a stick in diplomacy for a couple of decades - to extort oil and food from the West. It has little to do with who's in the White House.

That being said, US foriegn policy has always been poor, as succeeding Democratic and Republican Presidents and their SOS's flip-flop on policy. There's plenty of blame to go around.

 

[MobBoss]

... you might learn something... just guessing

Yeah, i'd learn not to waste over an hour of my life i'll never get back on such meaningless stuff.

Why would I want to learn more about North Korea that I cant learn from watching 'Team America: World Police'?

 

[kramerfan86]

Oh dear GNU, how horrible it is to watch an hour long educational video. Yes, it is very unreasonable to expect people to educate themselves in areas they want to have an opinion, that should have any weight at all, instead of just getting the easy, abridged, answers.
Yes, that was sarcasm.

Save your snark, if everyone approached the internet forum with the mindset of "oh Ill just throw up an hour long video to backup my argument" people wouldnt exactly have much time to do much of anything.

 

[Old Hippy]

Yeah, i'd learn not to waste over an hour of my life i'll never get back on such garbage.

guess i was right then...

 

[Formaldehyde]

I still say it is naïve to think that DPRK wouldn't have gone for the bomb, if Bush didn't FUBAR the US foreign relations for internal reasons (boy was he, and his staff, ever a disaster).

It certainly didn't help matters, especially after Bill Clinton made remarkable efforts to normalize diplomacy and Kim Dae-Jung was elected president on the "Sunshine Policy" for which he won the Nobel Peace Prize. But the warmongers eventually got their way when a like minded "conservative" government replaced him in 2006.

But you never can tell what might have happened if the Bush administration had acted like rational adults instead of irrational idiots after 9/11. Things may very well have progressed in the same manner, but then again they may not have.

As Dr. Heckler makes quite clear in the video, one of the most important aspects of developing nuclear weapons is the security you gain from doing so. I seriously doubt any future far-right president will be foolhardy enough to do to NK what Bush did with Iraq now that they do have nuclear weapons. The same is also true with Iran, the other so-called "axis of evil". I can hardly blame them for merely trying to defend themselves from similar invasions.

However, it would probably have taken the DPRK quite a bit longer to get where it is today.

The only way that would be true is if the peace initiatives had actually had no effect. I think their efforts were delayed substantially because they didn't believe they were being directly threatened anymore, and the majority of South Koreans actually wanted to reunify and help North Korea with the droughts.

I am actually on the side with the hardliners, well, at least now. I see no reason to help or negotiate the DPRK regime anymore, as I think the ship for the opening of the DPRK has sailed. Of course, that is quite easy for me to say, I stand to lose absolutely nothing.

I think there is always a place for diplomacy and negotiation instead of saber-rattling and absurd Cold War-style rhetoric, even when it is the lives of hundreds of millions of non-Americans who are directly affected by our colossal foreign policy blunders.

 

[kramerfan86]

Off the side trail of the video, I can buy the fact that Bush caused the nuclear weapon development. However, I think even had he continued the Clinton methods North Korea would have just continually held up the possibility of a nuclear program as a means to get aid in negotiations. I suppose you can easily argue though that a status quo where they arent a nuclear threat in exchange for food is a decent deal. Even with that though it would still be easily one of the worst places on Earth, but its neighbors would be less threatened.

 

[Formaldehyde]

There is no doubt that North Korea is a brutal repressive country. But I hardly think we will make things any better by forcing them to be even more brutal and repressive than they already are by frequently challenging their sovereignty.

There has also clearly been a concerted propaganda campaign waged in the US to make them appear to be far worse than they actually are, which Dr. Heckler confirms with his own frequent visits. As he pointed out, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

 

[kramerfan86]

Yes agitating dictatorships usually is non-beneficial. Carrot and stick method to get them to reform a little would likely be a bit more effective.

 

[Formaldehyde]

One of the things I found most surprising from watching the video was how close the Egyptian government has been with the North Koreans, and how much aid the North Korean nuclear weapons effort has gotten from Europe. Talk about strange bedfellows.

 

[kochman]

There is no doubt that North Korea is a brutal repressive country. But I hardly think we will make things any better by forcing them to be even more brutal and repressive than they already are by frequently challenging their sovereignty.

There has also clearly been a concerted propaganda campaign waged in the US to make them appear to be far worse than they actually are, which Dr. Heckler confirms with his own frequent visits. As he pointed out, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

No doubt?
You've been on the record many times defending it, that leaves some doubt in my mind as to whether there is doubt in yours...

 

[Andvare]

Save your snark, if everyone approached the internet forum with the mindset of "oh Ill just throw up an hour long video to backup my argument" people wouldnt exactly have much time to do much of anything.

Yeah, sorry about the snark attack, that wasn't necessary. My neighbour apparently hasn't found his volume control. That is a piss poor excuse, don't post while angry, but there you go.

However, I still stand by my point, that the information in educational videos such as this, can be essential to understand a subject. Important information is rarely given through quick abridged versions.
And in this case, it's not necessarily a waste of time, even though there are a lot of staged info in there. You can still learn something from a staged event.
He is not all that good a speaker, average I'd say, but he is clearly intelligent, and can use what he is allowed to see to great extent.