Take that Kim Jong!
- Thread starter kochman
- Start date
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
The US military has always denied any incursions into North Korea and now continue to do so. But that certainly hasn't stopped the South Korean military:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_of_Korea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_of_Korea
Of course, the North Korean incursions have been more frequent and certainly much better documented.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
Got news for South Korea, bro, if it wasn't for us they wouldn't exist. The moment we pull out of Korea is the moment the North proclaims victory and starts acting tougher.
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
If it wasn't for the US, Korea would not have been split in half in the first place. Not to mention the puppet dictatorship we installed in the south wouldn't have provoked the hostilities by making numerous incursions over the 38th parallel. The South Korean government was so bad that it took until the 80s for a democratic government to finally take its place.
The South Korean military is also the 6th largest in the world and have far better technology than North Korea. They are hardly defenseless.
The South Korean military is also the 6th largest in the world and have far better technology than North Korea. They are hardly defenseless.
The two Americans were unarmed, and shot down by North Korean Troops. Yes, that would be murder.
If a soldier is armed and fighting and is killed by the enemy, that's a KIA. If a soldier is unarmed, or wounded, or surrendering and is killed, that's murder.
Besides common sense, there's also international law;
...it is forbidden;
b) To kill or wound treacherously individuals belonging to a hostile nation or army.
c) To kill or wound an enemy who, ...having no longer means of defense...
(The Hague Conventions, Annex, Section II, Chapter I)
aelf
Ashen One
They were guarding the border in what is effectively war-time and they were unarmed? Wow.
Popular accounts not only confirm the officers were unarmed, but that the tree-cutting had previously been negotiated with and approved by the NKPA, making the murders even more inexplicable.
The Korean War "ended" with an Armistice Agreement and a cease-fire in 1953, and while no peace treaty has ever been signed, it is not "war-time".
aelf
Ashen One
Yeah, maybe if you pretend that no hostilities have occurred since then.
I would pretend no such thing. In fact, that's kind of the point. Despite the war being over for 60 years, North Korea seems just as belligerent and bellicose as ever. Most of the sabre-rattling and war-rhetoric comes from the North. In the South they've moved-on and developed a modern country.
kramerfan86
Deity
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2008
- Messages
- 3,572
Its unknowable if an unsplit Korea in those conditions would be a better or worse situation. Its easily could be an whole peninsula dictatorship as opposed to a half democracy, half dictatorship situation.
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
Do your really think the South Koreans wanted to be reunified in a dictatorship under Kim Jung Il in the past, or even Kim Jung-un now?
How many West Germans were opposed to reunification even on the grounds that they would economically suffer?
This is apparently a massively popular movement on both sides of the border.
As Dr. Heckler stated in the video after spotting the North Korean teen wearing a backwards Nike baseball cap, "where there is swoosh there is hope". I think it is just a matter of time.
How many West Germans were opposed to reunification even on the grounds that they would economically suffer?
This is apparently a massively popular movement on both sides of the border.
As Dr. Heckler stated in the video after spotting the North Korean teen wearing a backwards Nike baseball cap, "where there is swoosh there is hope". I think it is just a matter of time.
kramerfan86
Deity
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2008
- Messages
- 3,572
How is that a response to me talking about the original split not happening? You are talking about a future merger, I am talking about the hypothetical past merger.
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
Oh, I completely misunderstood your question. My apologies. I thought you were talking about the recent unification talks.
No, they both lived under dictatorships until the 80s when one of them finally change.
My point was that Korea never should have been split in the first place after WWII. It was unwise for the US administrators to do it in the first place. Free elections should have been immediately held instead.
No, they both lived under dictatorships until the 80s when one of them finally change.
My point was that Korea never should have been split in the first place after WWII. It was unwise for the US administrators to do it in the first place. Free elections should have been immediately held instead.
kramerfan86
Deity
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2008
- Messages
- 3,572
Agree about free elections, only question would be if the US didnt get involved would the Soviets/China respected free elections or would they have just moved in and turned the entire area into a puppet state dictatorship? That scenario would be worse than the status quo because even though South Korea was a dictatorship for a long time it eventually did reach democracy status, Im not so sure a Chinese puppet state Korea would have.
However, it would be nice if a modern Korea happened at some point. Likely will prove to be more difficult than the german reunification though.
However, it would be nice if a modern Korea happened at some point. Likely will prove to be more difficult than the german reunification though.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
Not at all. Murder is a subset of 'killing' with a much more narrow definition.
Yeah, the communists would have overrun the entire country decades ago.
aelf
Ashen One
Yeah, but it also means it's probably not a good idea to be guarding the border unarmed. In fact, that's kind of my point.
Yup, and the incident mentioned might not exactly conform to that definition.
Are you being deliberately obtuse? Of course they're armed when they're guarding the border. But they had an agreement with the NKPA to enter the zone to trim the tree. Naturally they did not carry weapons in so as not to provoke a fight. Yet they were attacked anyway.
kramerfan86
Deity
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2008
- Messages
- 3,572
Im not sure how much I believe this claim that North Korea agreed to let us into their territory to cut a tree so we could more easily monitor them.
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
That is not exactly what transpired. The incident happened in the Joint Security Area which is where the negotiations between both sides occur. Both sides were allowed only 5 armed officers and 30 armed enlisted soldiers at any time in that zone. This meant the two officers and enlisted personnel who were to trim the tree were not armed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axe_murder_incident
The trimming of the tree was decided upon and agreed to by both sides because it partially hid one UN observation post from the other. OTOH Operation Paul Bunyan, which occurred as a result, was a secret operation using overwhelming firepower in case there was a similar incident. Instead of merely trimming the tree, they chopped it down with chainsaws.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axe_murder_incident
The trimming of the tree was decided upon and agreed to by both sides because it partially hid one UN observation post from the other. OTOH Operation Paul Bunyan, which occurred as a result, was a secret operation using overwhelming firepower in case there was a similar incident. Instead of merely trimming the tree, they chopped it down with chainsaws.
In response on killing 2 army officers, they launched a military operation to chop a tree?
