Tamar of Georgia

[marius_kaparius]

There's been a lot of joking about this, renewed by the announcement of the expansion. But how would a Tamar leader of a Georgia civilization actually work? I would think that the idea only has a real shot if an interesting combination of LUA, UA, UB/UI, and UU could be found but my searches on these forums for suggestions turn up empty? Am I just bad at searching? Is an interesting Civilization really possible?

 

[Guandao]

There's at least one Mod for Tamar/Georgia in Civ5. Maybe check that out?

Here's a link to an old thread here.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Let's talk about what makes Georgia and Tamar special first.

Georgia is a mountainous country at the cross-roads between Eastern Orthodox Greek culture to the north and west and Islamic Persian culture to the south and east. The low-landers establish a fairly conventional feudalistic society complete with Byzantine style knights. The mountain folk were resistant to control but loyal and fierce fighters.

Tamar started her reign like many women, attempting to beat back petty nobles who wished to manipulate and control her. Once she established her autonomy, she developed a reputation for piety and independence. Georgia underwent a period of prosperity which engendered a flourish of culture and art. Tamar would go on to patronize many religious organizations throughout the Holy Land with her wealth.

So, I don't have all the answers, but a few suggestions:

Tamar LUA: Double GWAM points during Golden Ages. and something to do with religion.

Georgia UA: City Centers and Encampments with Walls built adjacent to mountains can perform two ranged attacks

UU: some kind of knight replacement

U Infrastructure: ???

 

[marius_kaparius]

There's at least one Mod for Tamar/Georgia in Civ5. Maybe check that out?

Here's a link to an old thread here.

Thanks. I get the impression that their niche is filled to some extent by Civ 6's Poland which makes their inclusion a lot less likely. Maybe they could be differentiated by bonuses to religious art which would make them a religion-culture hybrid. Some added flavor could be a boost to military units based on relics, similar to the Amenity bonuses for the Aztecs.

 

[marius_kaparius]

Georgia is a mountainous country at the cross-roads between Eastern Orthodox Greek culture to the north and west and Islamic Persian culture to the south and east.

Maybe this translates to them gaining benefits from all trade routes passing through their territory.

Tamar would go on to patronize many religious organizations throughout the Holy Land with her wealth.

Religious patronage: Spend gold to generate a pilgrim unit at the holy city of a religion. If the unit returns to your territory it spawns a relic.

 

[Xandinho]

I know very little about Georgia/Tamar and the Caucasus region. I can only imagine Georgia as a defense-centered religious civilization, but I think @Zaarin can contribute much with this thread.

 

[nzcamel]

If I'm not mistaken, we're going to get a woman leader with Golden Age bonus. Tamar ruled during the Golden Age of Georgia. A coincidence?

If we were to get Georgia over Armenia simply because of the ability to shoehorn in another female leader I'll be annoyed.
The latter deserves their spot first.

Edit: Kimiimaro's post from the Dutch first look thread.

 

[Zaarin]

I'm not good at thinking up abilities, but I can talk a bit about why I think both Tamar and Georgia deserve to be in the game. I'm not feeling great, so sorry if my thoughts aren't entirely cogent.

First, I think it's unfortunate that the Caucasus as a region has yet to be represented as more than city-states (Yerevan and Tbilisi in Civ5, Yerevan in Civ6). The debates that pepper these boards about whether the Trans-Caucasus is Europe or Asia underscores its uniqueness, I think: heavily influenced by Persia but still Christian and therefore with ties to Europe as well. Armenia was the first Christian nation in the world, and Georgia wasn't Christianized much later. Georgia specifically speaks a language that has never been represented before (Kartvelian), and its script is unique, with no demonstrated relationship to any other script (some propose it descends from Syriac, but that hasn't been proven). The Caucasus has a unique culture and a long history. As for Tamar herself, she presided over a golden age in Georgia in which the arts flourished (the most famous piece of Georgian literature, The Knight in the Tiger Skin, was composed at Tamar's court) and the Georgian Apostolic Church (an Oriental Orthodox Church) flourished. Tamar was a collector of relics, which suggests she could get some bonus for relic generation.

If we were to get Georgia over Armenia simply because of the ability to shoehorn in another female leader I'll be annoyed.
The latter deserves their spot first.

Edit: Kimiimaro's post from the Dutch first look thread.

While I think Armenia is the greater civilization, it has no leader to compare to Tamar in the "big personality" department. Also, I think we won't see Armenia for the same reason we won't see Tibet or Israel: Turkey will throw a fit if Armenia is included. Especially since a significant portion of historical Armenia is currently claimed by Turkey, including Mt. Ararat (which should totally be a natural wonder in Civ6). Besides, Tamar was a powerful ruler worthy of the attention she draws; it's not like she's another Catherine de Medici.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

If we were to get Georgia over Armenia simply because of the ability to shoehorn in another female leader I'll be annoyed.
The latter deserves their spot first.

Edit: Kimiimaro's post from the Dutch first look thread.

Well, there's that, plus Tamar has become something of a community meme since the leaked leader poster. It's possible that Firaxis wants to honor the fan community by upgrading the meme to a full-fledged civ.

 

[Kimiimaro]

If we were to get Georgia over Armenia simply because of the ability to shoehorn in another female leader I'll be annoyed.
The latter deserves their spot first.

It's not just another femole leader. It's the female leader. It's Tamar! Glorious Tamar of Georgia

I don't really care which one of these two will we get. Both would be a great addition because we're in horrible lack of Caucasian Civs. We've actually never had any

 

[Guandao]

I'm not good at thinking up abilities, but I can talk a bit about why I think both Tamar and Georgia deserve to be in the game. I'm not feeling great, so sorry if my thoughts aren't entirely cogent.

First, I think it's unfortunate that the Caucasus as a region has yet to be represented as more than city-states (Yerevan and Tbilisi in Civ5, Yerevan in Civ6). The debates that pepper these boards about whether the Trans-Caucasus is Europe or Asia underscores its uniqueness, I think: heavily influenced by Persia but still Christian and therefore with ties to Europe as well. Armenia was the first Christian nation in the world, and Georgia wasn't Christianized much later. Georgia specifically speaks a language that has never been represented before (Kartvelian), and its script is unique, with no demonstrated relationship to any other script (some propose it descends from Syriac, but that hasn't been proven). The Caucasus has a unique culture and a long history. As for Tamar herself, she presided over a golden age in Georgia in which the arts flourished (the most famous piece of Georgian literature, The Knight in the Tiger Skin, was composed at Tamar's court) and the Georgian Apostolic Church (an Oriental Orthodox Church) flourished. Tamar was a collector of relics, which suggests she could get some bonus for relic generation.


While I think Armenia is the greater civilization, it has no leader to compare to Tamar in the "big personality" department. Also, I think we won't see Armenia for the same reason we won't see Tibet or Israel: Turkey will throw a fit if Armenia is included. Especially since a significant portion of historical Armenia is currently claimed by Turkey, including Mt. Ararat (which should totally be a natural wonder in Civ6). Besides, Tamar was a powerful ruler worthy of the attention she draws; it's not like she's another Catherine de Medici.

I don't think Tbilisi was a City-State in Civ5, unless a Modder made them one. It was on the Mongol City-list under the name of Tiflis.

Yeah, I think the Turkish people wouldn't be receptive to Armenia becoming a Civ.
Closest Armenian leader that I can think of as a "big personality" is Tigranes the Great.

 

[nzcamel]

While I think Armenia is the greater civilization,

I think you've summed it up.

...it has no leader to compare to Tamar in the "big personality" department.

I'll argue over what leaders from a Civ should be included based on the "big personality" theme of VI... but I won't extend that to the Civ's themselves. Tamar should not knock out Armenia.

Also, I think we won't see Armenia for the same reason we won't see Tibet or Israel: Turkey will throw a fit if Armenia is included. Especially since a significant portion of historical Armenia is currently claimed by Turkey, including Mt. Ararat (which should totally be a natural wonder in Civ6).

Who cares what Turkey thinks! A significant part of many Civs in the game are now part of different countries! We do not bend our liberal values over backwards for backwardness.
From a practical POV, if Turkey had the population of China, maybe 2K would -sadly- care. But they don't have that pop. Enough encouraging immaturity from current countries; especially over a game.

Well, there's that, plus Tamar has become something of a community meme since the leaked leader poster. It's possible that Firaxis wants to honor the fan community by upgrading the meme to a full-fledged civ.

And that's cool...but still awfully disrespectful to Armenia if a meme is more important than they

 

[Zaarin]

I don't think Tbilisi was a City-State in Civ5, unless a Modder made them one. It was on the Mongol City-list under the name of Tiflis.

Yeah, I think the Turkish people wouldn't be receptive to Armenia becoming a Civ.
Closest Armenian leader that I can think of as a "big personality" is Tigranes the Great.

Really? I could swear Tbilisi was a Civ5 city-state. I never used any mods except the "more religions" mod.

I think you've summed it up.



I'll argue over what leaders from a Civ should be included based on the "big personality" theme of VI... but I won't extend that to the Civ's themselves. Tamar should not knock out Armenia.



Who cares what Turkey thinks! A significant part of many Civs in the game are now part of different countries! We do not bend our liberal values over backwards for backwardness.
From a practical POV, if Turkey had the population of China, maybe 2K would -sadly- care. But they don't have that pop. Enough encouraging immaturity from current countries; especially over a game.



And that's cool...but still awfully disrespectful to Armenia if a meme is more important than they

I agree with most of what you said, especially regarding the fact that 2K shouldn't care what political agenda genocide-deniers have. Nevertheless, the fact that Israel/Judah has not been represented in six versions of Civilization is telling, as is the absence of anything more than an oblique reference to Tibet. As for Georgia vs. Armenia, as I said, I think Armenia is overall the greater civ--but not by such a degree that I feel cheated by having Georgia instead. Example: I'd love to see the Duchy of Brittany, but I'd feel cheated if we got the Duchy of Brittany and not France. I don't feel that way about Georgia vs. Armenia--both are very deserving civilizations, and in leader-focused Civ6 I'd rather see Tamar than Tigranes the Great or Tiridates III or whatever Armenian leader they chose.

So yes, I'd love to see Armenia, but I don't begrudge seeing Georgia in its stead. (I would begrudge seeing Azerbaijan over either Armenia or Georgia, however. )

 

[Guandao]

Really? I could swear Tbilisi was a Civ5 city-state. I never used any mods except the "more religions" mod.


I agree with most of what you said, especially regarding the fact that 2K shouldn't care what political agenda genocide-deniers have. Nevertheless, the fact that Israel/Judah has not been represented in six versions of Civilization is telling, as is the absence of anything more than an oblique reference to Tibet. As for Georgia vs. Armenia, as I said, I think Armenia is overall the greater civ--but not by such a degree that I feel cheated by having Georgia instead. Example: I'd love to see the Duchy of Brittany, but I'd feel cheated if we got the Duchy of Brittany and not France. I don't feel that way about Georgia vs. Armenia--both are very deserving civilizations, and in leader-focused Civ6 I'd rather see Tamar than Tigranes the Great or Tiridates III or whatever Armenian leader they chose.

So yes, I'd love to see Armenia, but I don't begrudge seeing Georgia in its stead. (I would begrudge seeing Azerbaijan over either Armenia or Georgia, however. )

Nope, Tbilisi definitely wasn't a City-State in Civ5, just a Mongol city. You have to trust me on this.
I feel the same way as you concerning Georgia vs. Armenia. Both are worthy of being in Civ. The whole political situation is unfortunate, in a perfect world, Israel, Tibet and Armenia would be Civs in the game.

Azerbaijan doesn't really have much Medieval/Ancient history (unless you want Caucasian Albania , which was unrelated to the later Turkic Azerbaijiani people), so I think they would be a strange Civ choice.

 

[Zaarin]

Azerbaijan doesn't really have much Medieval/Ancient history (unless you want Caucasian Albania , which was unrelated to the later Turkic Azerbaijiani people), so I think they would be a strange Civ choice.

Extremely strange. I was just throwing them in as the one Transcaucasian nation I really don't want to see. (Beautiful country, though, based on pictures. I wouldn't mind seeing some of Azerbaijan's geothermal features as a natural wonder.)

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Militarily, during the period of the 12th - 13th centuries immediately before, during, and after the Tamar "Golden Age", the Georgian Army was notable for the fact that there really wasn't a 'Georgian' Army. That is, there was the usual 'Feudal Host' of armored knights (although they tended to look more Persian than European - pointy helmets, mail shirts, lance - very 'Eastern' in appearance) but the mainstay of the military was all foreign: 40,000+ Kipchaks (steppe nomad horse-archers), plus Cumans and Alans settled on empty territory within Georgia, and heavy infantry Varangians hired from both Russian states and Scandinavia.

A Georgian 'Unique Unit' therefore, might be not a specific unit, but the ability to use other Civilizations' units. Since everything in the game is centered around cities, perhaps Georgia could designate an Encampment in a city to build the Unique Unit of the nearest neighboring Civ, resulting in Georgian Horse Archers (instead of Scythian) or Georgian Berserkers (instead of Norwegian). The Encampment would have to have the proper 'auxiliary' building (Stable or Barracks) and each Encampment could only build one 'foreign' unit - no getting Winged Hussars and Horse Archers out of the same Encampment!
This would be radically different from the usual Civ Unique Unit, but would replicate the character of the 'historical' Georgian military during Tamar's reign.

 

[Aktchyually]

As much as i like this idea, it isn't historically accurate. Davit the builder (Tamar's great grandfather,aka best ruler of Georgia) allowed kipchaks to settle in his territory for an exchange of military aid in upcoming battle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Didgori), but slowly they lost their identity and adopted Georgian culture, as for Alans, they were mercenaries and were used in small portions, spine of the army were Georgian semi-nobles "Aznaurebi" and zealot mountain people.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

As much as i like this idea, it isn't historically accurate. Davit the builder (Tamar's great grandfather,aka best ruler of Georgia) allowed kipchaks to settle in his territory for an exchange of military aid in upcoming battle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Didgori), but slowly they lost their identity and adopted Georgian culture, as for Alans, they were mercenaries and were used in small portions, spine of the army were Georgian semi-nobles "Aznaurebi" and zealot mountain people.

Thank you for the clarification on Davit. However, while you are exactly correct that the Kipchaks became Georgian, I was trying to specifically address the military during the reign of Tamar, when they were still distinctly 'Kipchak', along with the Alans and Varangians that had been hired.
At least up until the Mongol conquest in the 13th century, the Kipchaks are still identified as a separate and distinct part of the Georgian military, which implies (to me) that they hadn't completely assimilated yet.
Contemporary (Christian) travelers described the Georgians as the 'Strong right arm' of Christianity in the region, and (admittedly somewhat after Tamar's reign) depictions of Georgian 'knights' show them almost indistinguishable in armor and equipment from the Persian heavy cavalry: typically Persian pointed helmet, mail body armor, lance and bow. The addition of the bow might reflect the Kipchak influence, but I haven't been able to find any direct evidence of that - but then, I don't read the language, and the Russian sources from the Soviet period are almost completely silent on pre-Soviet Georgia except as it related to the Russian Empire, much later than Tamar's reign.

 

[Aktchyually]

Contemporary (Christian) travelers described the Georgians as the 'Strong right arm' of Christianity in the region, and (admittedly somewhat after Tamar's reign) depictions of Georgian 'knights' show them almost indistinguishable in armor and equipment from the Persian heavy cavalry: typically Persian pointed helmet, mail body armor, lance and bow.

Fun fact: the armor and equipment were so expensive that sometimes winning side would take it from the fallen soldiers, that is the reason why some Georgian's wore equipment with Persian characteristics, but most troops used to wear mail and held buckler shields.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Fun fact: the armor and equipment were so expensive that sometimes winning side would take it from the fallen soldiers, that is the reason why some Georgian's wore equipment with Persian characteristics, but most troops used to wear mail and held buckler shields.

Hah! I suspected as much, since all sorts of 'foreign' armor shows up in early Medieval ("Dark Age" - 7th to 9th century) graves in the British Isles, even Roman helmets and weapons that had to be preserved for at least 300 years! I would bet that especially the Persian-style helmets, that are usually quite finely made and very distinctive in shape, would be a prime 'trophy' item for any opposing soldier who could get one - the Lugar Pistol of the 13th century, so to speak...