Thyrwyn
Guardian at the Gate
Scurvy. We could introduce a Citrus resource which would let your troops stay at sea longer. . . .
I'm kidding. Really.
I'm kidding. Really.
Tantor`s simple system for upkeep and supply
- Thread starter Tantor
- Start date
Shurdus
Am I Napoleon?
Sailing was highly dangerous indeed. But afaik there is already an upkeep system in Civ IV that makes it so that units outside your territory are more expensive to maintain.
All in all the system for having more upkeep costs and such is fine, but to specify and make it more complex than it is is not needed in a game like civ, it is more something for a pure wargame. Also doing this in order to make the exploration phase more prominent is to insert a feature that introduces a host of problems just to make it so that exploration will be harder. This means that the exploration phase will be over by the time you hit paper, just like it is now. The chances of exploring yourself will be even more slim. All this to solve an issue that a few people see...
No. Just no.
All in all the system for having more upkeep costs and such is fine, but to specify and make it more complex than it is is not needed in a game like civ, it is more something for a pure wargame. Also doing this in order to make the exploration phase more prominent is to insert a feature that introduces a host of problems just to make it so that exploration will be harder. This means that the exploration phase will be over by the time you hit paper, just like it is now. The chances of exploring yourself will be even more slim. All this to solve an issue that a few people see...
No. Just no.
KrikkitTwo
Immortal
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Well I would put it as 5 categories of terrain
Friendly (inside cultural borders)
Close Neutral (X distance, a second set of visible 'borders' showing your supply limit)
Close Enemy (same X distance but in Enemy Territory)
Far Neutral (a third set of Y>X distance 'borders')
Global (anywhere on map)
Each level has increased maintenance (gold only), decreased healing rate
And some units can only go to a certain # of levels.. ie there should be 'hard' Limits as well.
ie some are in culture only
some are close neutrial (and culture) only
Most military ones can go to close enemy only
Early Explorers can go to Far Neutral
Late Explorers can go Global
This Distance should Not be a fixed Hex distance but a certain amount of 'Movement points' so if there is a mountain range, your 'supply' wraps around it. And hills restrict it, Roads would extend it, etc. (and the Distance should increase with techs, wonders, etc.)
Friendly (inside cultural borders)
Close Neutral (X distance, a second set of visible 'borders' showing your supply limit)
Close Enemy (same X distance but in Enemy Territory)
Far Neutral (a third set of Y>X distance 'borders')
Global (anywhere on map)
Each level has increased maintenance (gold only), decreased healing rate
And some units can only go to a certain # of levels.. ie there should be 'hard' Limits as well.
ie some are in culture only
some are close neutrial (and culture) only
Most military ones can go to close enemy only
Early Explorers can go to Far Neutral
Late Explorers can go Global
This Distance should Not be a fixed Hex distance but a certain amount of 'Movement points' so if there is a mountain range, your 'supply' wraps around it. And hills restrict it, Roads would extend it, etc. (and the Distance should increase with techs, wonders, etc.)
Shurdus
Am I Napoleon?
Right now, you can explore the map with a unit. In some games you will do this, in some games you do not. If you make an effort then you can explore a continent by the time you hit paper. All the gaps left after that are filled up with trading maps. This is how it is done in Civ IV.just what did you mean by saying this, BTW?
So if you limit the exploration in V by adding upkeep limits, it becomes less attractive to send out units. So this means that the lay of the land will be revealed after trading maps rather than sending out units. This is precisely what happens in IV as well. In IV you can send out units and explore before you hit paper, but a lot is revealed by map trading. Adding upkeep for units makes sending out units less attractive, yet the outcome will still be the same -> once you trade maps, the exploration is done.
KrikkitTwo
Immortal
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Then make trading maps require higher tech.
Shurdus
Am I Napoleon?
Because once there was paper tradig maps was too difficult?
Do you think that exploration should take longer? I was just mentioning that the addition of unit maintenance would not change the timespan in which exploration takes place. Also I do not think it should change at all, I am fine with the way it is. This whole discussion was spawned by some one who wanted the exploration phase to take longer. If that is the goal, adding maintenance is not the answer.
Making map trading available later would solve part of the issue. But would you prefer to make map trading available later just to lengthen the exploration phase of the game? I do not feel any need for that at all...
KrikkitTwo
Immortal
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Because once there was paper tradig maps was too difficult?
Do you think that exploration should take longer? I was just mentioning that the addition of unit maintenance would not change the timespan in which exploration takes place. Also I do not think it should change at all, I am fine with the way it is. This whole discussion was spawned by some one who wanted the exploration phase to take longer. If that is the goal, adding maintenance is not the answer.
Making map trading available later would solve part of the issue. But would you prefer to make map trading available later just to lengthen the exploration phase of the game? I do not feel any need for that at all...
The exploration phase is a lot shorter than paper
Pre-paper you Very rapidly could explore all the terrain accessible to you (only when enemy culture or ocean stopped you did you not know it by 1000 BC)
Basically there were 2 stages
1. self-exploration... reaches to enemy culture/ocean... Rapid
2. Map Trading... gets all that was blocked by enemy culture... Very Rapid
3. Transoceanic exploration/map trading...fairly rapid, depending on resources (often near same time as paper
The idea is to expand #1, make it Not Rapid
If Exploration is limited to a few hexes from your borders, then Exploration early on is basically limited to the speed of settling.
also if Everyone is limited in their exploration, trading maps will not provide as much.
Shurdus
Am I Napoleon?
Maybe you explored most of the map long before you hit paper, but I find that often I have not explored as much by this time, mostly because I need my units at home. I do not send out my units to explore all that often.
Maybe this is something that istypical for lower difficulties as it is not like you would typically have that much hammers to spare for just exploring on immortal or deity.
Maybe this is something that istypical for lower difficulties as it is not like you would typically have that much hammers to spare for just exploring on immortal or deity.
Skip the food part of the upkeep, but then again cumulative upkeep based on distance from closest friendly border or fort will add some kind of supply system to the game, without making it more complex in my opinion.
There was a reason why Rome and Babylon didn`t explore the globe or simply sent out a legion to China.
There was a reason why Rome and Babylon didn`t explore the globe or simply sent out a legion to China.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Paper (or papyrus or parchment) exists long before civs in the same continent new about each other. Paper existed in Europe and China, and trade existed with China, long before Europeans actually had accurate maps of China.
Paper isn't enough. You also need cartography, and reliable means of measuring longitude.
Good maps really didn't exist until ~18th century or afterwards.
I think pushing back the tech for map-trading is the best solution.
Shurdus
Am I Napoleon?
Then again if one wanted to point others towards China a rough sketch of how to get there would have sufficed. It is not like there are dozens of instructions, just pointing in one direction and say 'follow the coast' would suffice.
Accurate maps may have existed later on, maps that were sufficient existed earlier. Why would one need an accurate map of China when one has a map that contains everyting one needs to know? It may be far off and not accurate, but it works. For a merchant, that would be close enough. The map plus common sense would get him where he needed to go. All this is very possible with a poor map.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Well, it depends what "maps" really represents. IMO, it represents knowledge good enough to be able to trade with the other cities. Western powers knew where China was, but they didn't trade with it directly - that was all handled by silk road middlemen. Hence, IMO Europe didn't really "trade maps" in-game with China until fairly late.
Being able to trade maps gives you a lot of info. It tells you where the cities are, how big they are, what improvements they have around them, where the borders are, etc.
That's a lot more data than "go east until you hit China".
But what we really want is something that works for gameplay while having some arguable grounding in history.
I think your point about map-trading being the real issue is great, which is what suggests that shifting map-trading in the tech tree is the only real way to encourage exploration later in the game.
Shurdus
Am I Napoleon?
And to think I mentioned it as a side-issue because it just suddenly occured to me.
frekk
Scourge of St. Lawrence
The portolan charts of the 1300s were actually not that bad at all - at least as concerns lands that were known. Accurate maps of China didn't exist principally because the Chinese did not have good mapping techniques, and Europeans had not been able to explore those areas much.
The main problem was that most charts were regarded as state secrets. They simply didn't trade maps. Sometimes maps would be leaked or stolen, once they became common knowledge other maps could be created from them and made available but maps containing new information were closely guarded - sometimes under pain of death for revealing them to foreigners.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Yes, naval charts in particular were treated as secrets - and a captain's rutter (their collection of maps) was also a valuable piece of intellectual property, sometimes they'd sell it when they retired for a large amount of money.
But that's kinda my point; knowledge of paper wasn't sufficient to lead to widespread exchange of terrain knowledge. Cartographic knowledge and good measuring devices are needed too.
So perhaps this is an AI issue, and the solution is to make the AI less willing to trade its maps?
Removing tech trading might also help here, so that you can't just get another AI's maps by giving them some tech, which costs you nothing directly.
If you actually have to pay significant gold to *buy* the maps, then the trading of maps will be significantly reduced.
Also perhaps (as someone else suggested) maybe map trading should only reveal your own territory, not your explorations.
But that's kinda my point; knowledge of paper wasn't sufficient to lead to widespread exchange of terrain knowledge. Cartographic knowledge and good measuring devices are needed too.
So perhaps this is an AI issue, and the solution is to make the AI less willing to trade its maps?
Removing tech trading might also help here, so that you can't just get another AI's maps by giving them some tech, which costs you nothing directly.
If you actually have to pay significant gold to *buy* the maps, then the trading of maps will be significantly reduced.
Also perhaps (as someone else suggested) maybe map trading should only reveal your own territory, not your explorations.
KrikkitTwo
Immortal
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In any case, a "Range Limit" on units would not only make exploration longer, it would allow diplomacy, trade and war more streadily advance (instead of knowing everyone on your continent by 0 AD
Exploration could be increased by:
1.Making the world bigger/make units more slower
2.Limit Unit exploration by maintenance, distance, supply (5 turns away from culture), or more barbarians
3.Make terrain change over time. (most likely small changes, like plain into grassland, not sea into mountain)
4.Make some details of landscape only see able by walking on to the tile itself.
(Resources, rivers, etc. can only be found if you walk on to the tile)
5.Map trading harder to get
This should be put in (from Explorers thread):
6.Fishing boats can only go to pre-explored areas
That's all the ideas I've heard or had.
1.Making the world bigger/make units more slower
2.Limit Unit exploration by maintenance, distance, supply (5 turns away from culture), or more barbarians
3.Make terrain change over time. (most likely small changes, like plain into grassland, not sea into mountain)
4.Make some details of landscape only see able by walking on to the tile itself.
(Resources, rivers, etc. can only be found if you walk on to the tile)
5.Map trading harder to get
This should be put in (from Explorers thread):
6.Fishing boats can only go to pre-explored areas
That's all the ideas I've heard or had.
Thyrwyn
Guardian at the Gate
See the other thread: Explorers and Exploration
