Tech-rushing to Alphabet for trading?

[ORION11380]

The last several games, I tried tech-rushing straight to Alphabet, ignoring all the other techs. I'd start out WAY behind (obviously) for the 1st 60 turns or so. But once I learn Alphabet, and start tech-trading like crazy, I jump from last to 1st and then some. A dozen turns later, I'm easily 20% ahead of the 2nd place AI (playing on Noble or Prince).

In essence Alphabet is worth all of the techs that I had ignored while researching it (granted the wonder has to be built before a civ would trade that tech). Obviously I trade everything EXCEPT Alphabet.

Then after Alphabet, I research Currency, so I can also get gold from the civs that don't have any new techs to offer. I find that on Huge maps with 18 civs, I could easily get 400g for something like literacy.

Now, the question is, is forsaking all the critical early game techs worth it? I have to go 60+ turns without roads, chopping, etc.

 

[Shurdus]

how much 60+ turns is depends on game speed, but I would not sacrifice techs you will need for some gold. You should never have to get by with fewer workers and less land. Grab that land, recover from getting a huge hit initially and then you will be well on your way to claim a lot of cities. After that teching will catch up soon enough so you never needed to sacrifice anything to get ahead.

 

[CLST]

The Alphabet beeline is good for many levels, as the AI tends to give it a low priority and you can trade it for a good bit.

Try the Aesthetics beeline. It tends to work well, too.

Also, you don't have to go straight for it. You can get some basic techs that allow your workers to stay busy and/or build a wonder first.

 

[DaveMcW]

Build 1.5 workers per city
Research enough techs to keep those workers busy.

Then you can do your fancy beelines.

 

[Crusher1]

The only time I would do an extreme tech rush like you have been experimenting with is when Alphabet would be the 4th tech you research and you have a few unforested hills in your capital or at least a few forested plain hills. I think Hatty, Giglamesh, and Louie are all good candidates because not only can they reach alphabet in 4, they also can make a fast library w/out chopping and run scientist quicker.

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

Try the Aesthetics beeline. It tends to work well, too.

Also, you don't have to go straight for it. You can get some basic techs that allow your workers to stay busy and/or build a wonder first.

Aesthetics won't help much on Noble/Prince, you gotta go alphabet first or tech trading may not start until the ADs.

And yeah, you should get your worker techs out of the way first, and then you'll find you get to alphabet that much faster anyway.

 

[CLST]

Aesthetics won't help much on Noble/Prince, you gotta go alphabet first or tech trading may not start until the ADs.

And yeah, you should get your worker techs out of the way first, and then you'll find you get to alphabet that much faster anyway.

True, but at Noble/Prince, the AI either has no advantage at all, or only a slight one, so you can just research whatever you want and do it more quickly to trade it.

 

[vormuir]

A dozen turns later, I'm easily 20% ahead of the 2nd place AI (playing on Noble or Prince).

A pure Alphabet beeline probably won't work at Monarch level: an AI will attack you first.

At Prince or Noble, yeah, maybe could. But note that it depends on having access to (1) multiple civs, who (2) are willing to trade with you. If you have one neighbor, or none, or if most of your neighbors are xenophobes or are annoyed with you (different religion, refusing their demands, whatever) this might not be worth it.


Waldo

 

[henrebotha]

I'm going to go right along with Dave on this one and say: get worker techs first, and make sure your second city is settled by 2000 BCE. You can then still make it to Alphabet first, except now (1) you have better techs to trade to rivals, and (2) they have had more time to research better techs to trade to you. And they still won't research Alphabet - the AIs avoid it once you have it. Furthermore, on Noble or Prince, you can easily also pull off the Oracle for something nice like Metal Casting, giving you even more trade bait.

 

[Gliese 581]

There is a problem with backtrading for all the cheap techs you neglected in this way. On the higher difficulties this would see you with no trade partners in the middle ages or renaissance unless you get someone to friendly because of WFYABTA.

 

[CornPlanter]

because of WFYABTA.

Is there any way to get rid of this WFYABTA once it kicks in? Any tips on how to avoid/clear it are appreciated

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Is there any way to get rid of this WFYABTA once it kicks in? Any tips on how to avoid/clear it are appreciated

The tip is to be lucky. The AI has a small % chance to forget a trade each turn. Otherwise, any known trade contributes the WFYABTA (fortunately the AI doesn't cheat and start this counter before you meet it, even though it ACTIVELY CHEATS to know you traded with its worst enemy even as it doesn't add a WFYABTA counter ?!!?!??!?!)

Other than luck or not knowing others yet the only way is to get them to friendly.

Edit: Pointy stick actually works too. If you somehow get them WYFBTA, then spank the crap out of them, they'll trade techs for their life , even though they still won't trade them for anything else (and this kind of "research" does count against WFYBTA).

 

[futurehermit]

Build 1.5 workers per city
Research enough techs to keep those workers busy.

Then you can do your fancy beelines.

Yes, exactly.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

(playing on Noble or Prince)

Well, being 20% ahead on Prince would be like being 40-50% ahead on Noble, so it'd probably do you good to know what level you play on.

Then you can do your fancy beelines.

nice Dave

 

[brianb1974]

I've found that I can get away with an alphabet beeline only if the cards fall just right.

As has been noted, you can't wait until alphabet to get the worker techs you need. And you must have a non-warrior military unit by the time the barbs enter your borders. But suppose you have the chinese starting techs and find yourself with a bunch of animals to pasture (or you pull AH from a goody hut). Animal husbandry, writing, alphabet might well get you to alphabet in time to trade for military techs, hook them up, and field some decent units.

The value of this beeline is going to depend on how many civs you have contact with and can stay on good terms with. Having Mansa Musa around (or anyone with whom you can get friendly) makes this much, much more viable. In addition to backfilling all the basic techs, MM will usually give you a good monopoly tech or two--maybe sailing or iron working or masonry (before the wonders are built) or a headstart up the religious line. You can turn the game into a 2 player race really quickly. If you have a great trading partner like this, devote all your effort to spying on them so you can see their research and make sure you aren't duplicating their efforts.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

And you must have a non-warrior military unit by the time the barbs enter your borders.

Usually, no. Warriors are just fine if you fogbust properly. Barbs won't be going into your borders.

But suppose you have the chinese starting techs and find yourself with a bunch of animals to pasture (or you pull AH from a goody hut). Animal husbandry, writing, alphabet might well get you to alphabet in time to trade for military techs, hook them up, and field some decent units.

This is a good point (IMO china has the best starting techs, which partially compensates their leaders). I'm running an offline immortal game where I had livestock + 2 unforested hills in BFC. AH--->writing---->BW--->mysticism--->pottery---->aesthetics.

Aesthetics tends to trade better on immortal than alphabet (I traded it for alpha and IW IIRC). I also had marble so even though I had mao not Qin I got TGL, Parthenon, and NE up in my capitol pretty quickly.

The early libraries were good vs neighbor culture and the scientists were good for research. Pretty strong opening if you play it right.

However, normally you don't want to neglect techs your workers need to improve special tiles. At least get those and probably BW before going alpha or aesthetics on a beeline.

 

[ORION11380]

Thanks for the tips, I'll incorporate them into my strat. A few details to note:

1. I do manage to keep my workers somewhat occupied with either Farms or Cottages, since those are pre-reqs for Alphabet. I do miss out on mining and chop rushing, but that lack of productivity is hedged by #2:

2. I use Imp leaders for this strat, so I'd essentially have double the number of cities as my rivals, in order to compensate for the lack of workers' land development. And I'd time my production so by the time I start tech trading, my cities are simultaneously popping out workers. A dozen turns later, the primary workable tiles are mostly developed.

3. I stay not-too-ahead of the pack by giving away techs to the civs furthest behind, so the AVERAGE power score is higher. I don't mind giving the last place civ horseback riding for 20g, since he's not a threat to me, and he'd slow down the stronger AI's that are trying to take him over. Plus he'd be grateful to me for the favor.

4. Once I get Currency, I would start out getting 60gcs for techs worth 180 beakers. But times 6 or 7 rivals, that's 360gc for 180beakers. It's especially great the turn after someone builds a great wonder, and everyone else's 80% completed pyramids turn into gold (magic?). And my outdated military instantly gets upgraded, and is now ahead of the curve.

 

[Crusher1]

And you must have a non-warrior military unit by the time the barbs enter your borders.

This has been nearly indisputably disproven on Immortal and below by TMIT. To follow up my original post I would like to add Zara to the list too (best actually). Basically any Creative leader who can tech Alphabet as their 4th tech doesn't have to skimp on anything besides the power of chopping - something I would care not to do, however, a beeline with such leaders is perfectly plausible.

That's right, no skimping besides chopping. Agr/Wheel Leaders simply go Mining, AH, Writing, Alpha while Zara can get away with AH, Writing, Alpha on some maps. Creative is necessary imo because otherwise your new cities will need slavery to whip/chop monuments and non CRE civilizations will take too much time to build a library and run 2 scientist.

So, Creative - Zara, Hatshepsut, Giglamesh, Louie, and any other CRE leaders needing 4 techs, lol =) . I wouldn't put Cathy in the group because skipping BW seems like a very bad choice and waste her IMP trait. I'd grow to happy cap while going warriors then some combination a worker with 3 settlers and then a library. 2 of the new cities can make workers.

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

2. I use Imp leaders for this strat, so I'd essentially have double the number of cities as my rivals, in order to compensate for the lack of workers' land development. And I'd time my production so by the time I start tech trading, my cities are simultaneously popping out workers. A dozen turns later, the primary workable tiles are mostly developed.

Don't let that imp trait fool you...you aren't getting double the number of cities. Since it only applies to hammers, not food, you are actually wasting the trait somewhat by not being up to chop/whip/and build mines ASAP. Honestly, only noble/Prince, there is no need to beeline alphabet. As was metioned earlier, you don't want to get to WFYABTA by trading for a bunch of cheap early techs. Better to wait until you can get iron working, monarch, or currency. But even still, the AI techs so slowly at the lower levels that tech trading isn't really important.

 

[Rodwell]

The thing about Alphabet is not only the trades, it allows you to BUILD research, hence REX even more (almost without limit). Currency is even better for this purpose.