Tech Trading Strategy 101

[podraza]

Hey Gang,

There is a great thread somewhere geared towards Immortal strategy. One of the posters on that thread said that on the higher levels you want to research for trade, not for use.

I'd love to do this, but how? How do I know what techs have the highest trade value? Is it simply a matter of checking the foreign advisor, seeing what they've got, guessing their spot on the tech tree, and then going up a different branch?

Or are there certain techs the AI avoids routinely and the expert players know them?

 

[mice]

I'm surprised more people haven't jumped on this thread because it seems to be a really important part of play. One thing I've learned is that metal casting is not targeted by the AI but that they will pay well for it (techs or gold) so a MC slingshot can get you a lot of tech. Same applies to the govt. techs CoL and CS. In general the AI doesnt seem to target the military techs, so machinery, gunpowder can get you an advantage. In the "fix the trash game 2" thread Pigswill did a theocracy sling with CS from the prophet and netted a whole lot of techs for them in trade.

 

[voek]

Well let me see with what I can come up with (there is prob. a list somewhere and usualy I regconize them on the techtree). Ai likes:

Polytheisme
Iron working
Metal Casting
Code of Laws
(construction)
Alphabet
Monarchy
Civil Service
Philosophy
Feudalisme
Engineering
(Guilds, banking path)
Liberalisme
Nationalisme
Constitution
Astronomy
Scientific Method
Steel
Electricity
Artillery-)rocketry (wonder why..)
Mass media

I think those are more prefered then others, not meaning they will research them always. AI often have 1 or 2 techtpaths they take in my experience.
For example I classify the religious/creative path (religion techs and music) or the warpath (iron working/maths/construction/engineering/etc).

Also every leader has a little preference IIRC for type of techs depending on their programmed 'nature'. So it varies somewhat.

hope it helps, but you will get the hang of it when you see what they offer for your techs and how often they want to trade for it. It's not always the beakers that count.

 

[Sisiutil]

I tend to find that the AI rarely researches Alphabet, Metal Casting, Code of Laws, Civil Service, Paper, Education, or Steel before I do, but it places a high value on them for trading. Trading some of them can have unwanted repercussions, however.

• If the AI has Code of Laws but not a religion of its own, it will usually bee-line to Philosophy for Taoism. Not good if you want that for yourself.
• Alphabet allows the AI to tech trade. It's best to hold on to this one for as long as you can, or not trade it at all.
• Paper and Education are on the path to Liberalism, so trading them to the AI often results in you getting beat to that tech and its prize.
• Civil Service enables Macemen (with Machinery). Scary.

Overall, I've had the best results from trading Metal Casting and Steel. A big advantage of each is that the AI then gets distracted building forges and ironworks rather than military units.

 

[pholkhero]

Theology and Divine Right, for some reason, are highly valued techs if you can get to them early enough through GPs.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

From having very early vassals in a recent game (using oracle to slingshot to feudalism mega BC), for once I could see what my two vassals were researching, and was pleasantly suprised to see that they will actually chop and change...

No-one in my known world had alphabet yet, so no tech trading was possible, and Mansa was researching metal working, but when the Chinese completed the Collosus, he immediately swapped to alphabet. I saw several other examples of this. Must say I was impressed, as I never gave the Ai credit for anything like this.

My new fav tech to trade is Philosophy, as I recently had a couple of games with a complete isolation factor until optics; then I pop a GScientist and took Philosophy. One of the games through extremely fortuitous circumstances (most of the world developing in small isolated groups) I got 12 whole techs as a direct result of trading Philo and its "Pyramid trading" effect.

And Philosophy doesn't build troops, or better troops like Theology, or give a combo of both like Civil Service, the worst you can get is someone goes peacenik on you

 

[Sisiutil]

Good point, DrewBledsoe--I forgot to mention Philosophy in my list of techs-I-get-that-the-AI-wants. I usually hold back on trading it for a while because it is a pre-requisite on the Liberalism race. I usually wait until I have Paper or Education over the AI before trading Philosophy away.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

Good point, DrewBledsoe--I forgot to mention Philosophy in my list of techs-I-get-that-the-AI-wants. I usually hold back on trading it for a while because it is a pre-requisite on the Liberalism race. I usually wait until I have Paper or Education over the AI before trading Philosophy away.

Good point yourself, but my normal stategy is expand like mad and to heck with the science..thats why I have to be very generous with what I'll accept for a decent blue chip (for the time tech), I'll often take number over quality, if it helps me back up the tech ladder quickly...

I can't remember the last time I got to Liberalism first, but my early, mid, and constant land grab normally comes to fruition around the 1600-1700's. and then it's a matter of surviving the sudden permanent alliances, when all the enemies I've made along the way decide to gang up on me

Oh and I fitted an extra gig of RAM today, so now I can CIV huge maps right to the end with no slowdown whatsoever, its bliss believe me

 

[mice]

I can't remember the last time I got to Liberalism first, but my early, mid, and constant land grab normally comes to fruition around the 1600-1700's. and then it's a matter of surviving the sudden permanent alliances, when all the enemies I've made along the way decide to gang up on me

It seems that there is a school of thought which is,instead of expanding and catching up in tech after 16-1700, it's better to tech trade/race to liberalism, then use gunpowde/Chemistry and Nationalism to attack, gaining the land a bit later.

Also, Louis likes to tech to Music. If you're chasing Music for the free artist, watch out for Louis

 

[cabert]

Good point, DrewBledsoe--I forgot to mention Philosophy in my list of techs-I-get-that-the-AI-wants. I usually hold back on trading it for a while because it is a pre-requisite on the Liberalism race. I usually wait until I have Paper or Education over the AI before trading Philosophy away.

there is no need hanging on philosophy
The Ais don't go for paper.
Paper is the one i won't trade immediately.

Good point yourself, but my normal stategy is expand like mad and to heck with the science..thats why I have to be very generous with what I'll accept for a decent blue chip (for the time tech), I'll often take number over quality, if it helps me back up the tech ladder quickly...

I can't remember the last time I got to Liberalism first, but my early, mid, and constant land grab normally comes to fruition around the 1600-1700's. and then it's a matter of surviving the sudden permanent alliances, when all the enemies I've made along the way decide to gang up on me

I can't remember last time I wasn't first to liberalism
I should try a game without it, for a change

You should not pay anything for old stuff. The WFYBTA effect counts agriculture for 1 tech, just the same as artillery, but you can often research it at 10% research in 1 turn, while cashing in for later deficit research!
+ trading to worst enemies will make you everyone's enemy

trading requires a lot of care!

 

[Pogel]

Another good thing about Philosophy is that it opens up Pacifism. Trade it to an aggressive civ who has built large numbers of units and then you can later try to encourage them to adopt Pacifism - it can make a large dent in their economy and shackle back their development considerably.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

(assume a military game for all these options)
QUESTION TO ALL: Is it better to
Grab early infrastructure techs (fishing, mining, wheel, etc.) and then b-line to your military techs.

Grab military techs / resource revealing techs first, then go for infrastructure

B-line to specific techs desired by the AI and trade later for the missing infrastructure and military techs

Choose a specific tech path and stick strictly to it, no matter what.

INSERT OTHER OPTIONS AS YOU PLEASE

I am really terrible at tech trading and often turn it off in custom games. When there is no tech trading, I find it to be a more realistic representation of the world as there are civs with varying levels of techs. Whereas games with techtrading on have a general balance between most civs. I'd really like to get ahold of tech-trading, though, so I can have a nice variety of different types of games.

 

[Sisiutil]

(assume a military game for all these options)
QUESTION TO ALL: Is it better to
Grab early infrastructure techs (fishing, mining, wheel, etc.) and then b-line to your military techs.

Grab military techs / resource revealing techs first, then go for infrastructure

B-line to specific techs desired by the AI and trade later for the missing infrastructure and military techs

Choose a specific tech path and stick strictly to it, no matter what.

Even with the stipulation of a warmongering game, my initial answer is still "it depends".

• If you're playing at Monarch or higher and/or with Raging Barbs on, you'll need a defensive military tech and its unit to hold off barbarians--usually Bronze Working for Axemen or Animal Husbandry for Chariots (especially in Warlords, where Chariots are now counters to Axemen). Since you may need to build a Settler and send him to a site and make its borders pop to obtain the required resource, it makes sense to do this as quickly as possible.
• If you start with Mysticism it may make sense to go after an early religion--or even if you don't, if a religion is going to be an important part of your overall strategy.
• If you have an early UU that requires a specific resource, it makes sense to bee-line to the tech that reveals that resource (such as Animal Husbandry for Persia's Immortals or Egypt's awesome War Chariots, Horseback Riding for Mongolia's Keshiks, or, of course, Iron Working for those kick-a** Praetorians).
• If you have a valuable resource in the fat cross that requires a tech for access--I'm thinking of gold in particular, if you don't start with mining--it makes sense to bee-line to that tech.
• If you have a disadvantageous start that yields little commerce, making your research sluggish, it makes sense to research techs the AI doesn't prioritize, but still wants, for trading.
• If you are attempting an overall strategy, such as building the Pyramids for early Representation to support a specialist economy, then it makes sense to do whatever research is required to pursue that goal.

That being said, my usual pattern--probably 7 games out of 10--is to bee-line to Bronze Working right off the bat. Unless copper is not available (or just too far away), I then get a couple of worker techs I immediately need (usually the Wheel and whatever I need to work a food source in the capital's fat cross--AH, Fishing, or Agriculture). After that I'm usually off on the Mysticism -> Meditation/Polytheism -> Priesthood path to get the Oracle and maybe Stonehenge as well, unless my leader has the creative trait.

I usually get Code of Laws from the Oracle, then Alphabet, and when I see what techs I have compared to the AI, and start seeing who will be friends and enemies and how amenable to trading they will be, I then make decisions about what techs I need to research and which ones I can trade for.

There are certain techs I almost never research myself. These include Archery, Horseback Riding, sometimes Hunting unless I need it to build a camp on a nearby resource, Masonry, Monotheism, Sailing, and Monarchy. I find these make good "filler techs" in a trade when a tech you have to offer is much more "expensive" than the one you're after.

I'll often skip Divine Right completely, especially if the AI beats me to it for Islam. I often won't even trade for it unless I have a big need for Versailles. The AI usually will not trade it until after the Spiral Minaret is built. Strangely, if I do research it, the AI places a very high priority on obtaining it, so it makes for a good bargaining chip.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

It seems that there is a school of thought which is,instead of expanding and catching up in tech after 16-1700, it's better to tech trade/race to liberalism, then use gunpowde/Chemistry and Nationalism to attack, gaining the land a bit later.

Also, Louis likes to tech to Music. If you're chasing Music for the free artist, watch out for Louis

That is of course an equally valid strategy, except the earlier the land is yours, the less inherent culture you have to battle for on tiles..even taking a large city in the 1600's with a huge amount of culture, means that the city becomes nothing more than a burden for centuries, even if you raze everything around it, because the second the same civ rebuilds near this land, its 100% theirs again (its my current pet peeve, I started a thread in the Warlords forum on it).

Of course you can completely annihilate the civ, but then you'll probably face cultural pressure from another civ's established culture, thats why I prefer the earlier the better, and if it takes 10 seperate wars against the same civ, then so be it.

@Sisiutil:- There are also a least a couple of civs in certain circumstances when I consider unique tech paths..

1) Egypt:- first should ALWAYS be Animal Husb, as if you get horses, then thats all you need to fight any barbs, this then leaves you able to "go religious" using the massively powerful 2 priests from obelisks to assist you in founding as many religions as possible (and with Rameses to build as many wonders as possible)

2) Viking:- if you get a coastal start especailly with seafood and hills, with other decent coastal sites available, the I go Archery then Sailing then The Wheel.

Several reasons, archery for defence and sailing means if you can build first few cities on the coast, then they are all instantly connected (or through a river near the coast).

Also the Vikes start with hunting / fishing, so building early workers is pretty useless until they have something to do, and mining /bronze working, especailly if no copper turns up means that all you can do is defoliate valuable early forests for what? Quick settlers to build cities that can only produce warriors or idle workers? Then you science is being killed before you even get agr, an husb or even pottery, and if no horses arrive , then iron working maybe a LONG way away now, and you haven't even got archery.

And you're in a whole world of civ hurt already.

Pls note that my observations are for the maps and lvl I play which is Monarch and up , and always huge maps / random worlds / aggressive AIs. The first priorirty has got to be defence.

Anyhow, just some observations, and now way of topic as per normal

 

[DrewBledsoe]

..............I can't remember last time I wasn't first to liberalism
I should try a game without it, for a change

You should not pay anything for old stuff. The WFYBTA effect counts agriculture for 1 tech, just the same as artillery, but you can often research it at 10% research in 1 turn, while cashing in for later deficit research!
+ trading to worst enemies will make you everyone's enemy

trading requires a lot of care!

Agreed it does I wasn't advising anything that moronic, but if Im offered say 10k beakers worth of tech for 12k on my part, then at highish lvls that's probably a good deal...as long as Im on decent terms with a least one civ then I tend not to care about the others, high lvls with aggressive AI setting always, they tend to hate you by just meeting you anyways

 

[cabert]

Agreed it does I wasn't advising anything that moronic, but if Im offered say 10k beakers worth of tech for 12k on my part, then at highish lvls that's probably a good deal...as long as Im on decent terms with a least one civ then I tend not to care about the others, high lvls with aggressive AI setting always, they tend to hate you by just meeting you anyways

I'm not familiar with the exotic settings (no barbs/raging barbs or no tech trade or agressive AI), but you probably have a point there.