Tech Tree Discussion

[MlnwY]

Thank you! I hope this will work

 

[Thunderbrd]

Note to the designer of
<Type>TECH_CAODAIISM</Type>,
the positioning is no longer very applicable to the current tech tree. It should be re-evaluated. Its X-grid placement puts it on the same column as a gateway tech for the era.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Note to the designer of
<Type>TECH_CAODAIISM</Type>,
the positioning is no longer very applicable to the current tech tree. It should be re-evaluated. Its X-grid placement puts it on the same column as a gateway tech for the era.

It is a religion so it is probably mine, but whoever moved stuff around should have either moved it when they were moving everything else or asked me to.

 

[Thunderbrd]

It is a religion so it is probably mine, but whoever moved stuff around should have either moved it when they were moving everything else or asked me to.

It's strange that it's not in the game... WIP huh?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

It's strange that it's not in the game... WIP huh?

Yes. Both it and Dreamtime. I think there are no wonders for Cao Dai in the real world yet. It is quite recent, 20th century if I remember correctly. We have most of the art and it is already in the game font file.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yes. Both it and Dreamtime. I think there are no wonders for Cao Dai in the real world yet. It is quite recent, 20th century if I remember correctly. We have most of the art and it is already in the game font file.

Such a shame to leave all these loose ends lying around when they're so super cool. I've been looking at the tech tree closely lately too and have noticed your diplomacy handiwork that you seem to be leaving on the development table... very, and I mean VERY cool stuff. I'm starting to feel a little cheated by your change of heart here bud.

 

[raxo2222]

Long time no see, while I'm not playing CiV 4 im lurking every few months here.
I'm very impressed by hydromancers tech tree: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...U0VYjV3-Ki9N7LHY/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&gid=2#
It seems like Singularity happened in middle of transhuman era.
Is it currently in game with last eras being split into smaller parts?

I guess our present civilization would have collection of Information era technologies. Wonder what farthest X column we actually touched.

Stellaris would be happening in Galactic era and at end of this game - nearing Cosmic era.

What about some Lovecraftian references at Galactic+ techs? It would be funny to spook less developed civilizations ;^)
Or destroy Ctuhlu home like it was ant colony ;^)
Well even my toys that I build in KSP Interstellar mod doesn't seem to be that impressive anymore - they are useful at exploring nearest star systems at best.

Really there is some x^x power trend in these techs. (not only exponential but also exponent base slowly raises over time.
I imangine story be progressing like this: Civs forming, god being central point, rise of scientefic reasoning, battling global crisises and then infinite expansion.
X1 Me impress girl more than you, no I be smarter than you (some Prehistoric ramblings)
x25: Praise the Cat God! (Ancient Egypt)
x50: I think we should focus more on Earthly sciences than Heavenly ones - why else God would give us brains? (Beginning on reneissance)
x75: We should outpace our mortal enemy, he has nukes. Invst in science to give military reason to protect our Civilization! (Modern era)
x100: While we are fighting global warming quality of live is rapidly increasing thanks to AI, Nanotechnology and space industry (Nanotech era)
x125: Do you remember old school game Stellaris? Heh we are now civilization like in this game. (Galactic era)
x150: Holy Lovecraft, stop terrorizing less developed civilizations with your pets! (Transcedent era)
x153: Do you remember, when your pet scared them? Well they created myth based on it. (Future)

Also there is so many techs, that civilisation almost doesn't change at all if you research one more tech - there is like 800 techs or more.
also I guess if we finally conquer +infunuty we will be going to -infinity that is going further back in time than Prehistoric
also I bet if this mod was made in Nanotech or later, then technologies would be more precise and realistic both in far future and far past.

 

[BUDDHAALIEN]

The torture tech must be in the game also the executiontech.When you set your set your civics on intolerant you can make a inquisitiondungeon and when you have no special buildings with jugdes createt the torturebuildings still exist and will be not replaced by ordinances. New cruel torturebuildings with more technologies like elektrity would be funny. Atompunk would be really cool ,too. I think all tech tree´s put in this game would spend 30 years till this mod is full finished, or ?

 

[BUDDHAALIEN]

You guys should put a new tech called Refugeewarfare. Where you can with your spies infiltrate the broadcasttower of a city and replace the enemycity with your own culture that this city will belong to you soon. That would be funny.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

You guys should put a new tech called Refugeewarfare. Where you can with your spies infiltrate the broadcasttower of a city and replace the enemycity with your own culture that this city will belong to you soon. That would be funny.

That is exactly what the Story Teller line of units should be able to do later in the game. Currently it is a Spy mission.

 

[lightning551]

First. I'm sorry but I haven’t read everything in this topic so if these were already covered I apologize but I've been looking for things that I find odd or out of place in my latest play though. The following techs just seem a little off to me mostly in how they are connected with other techs. Is there any logic for these that I’m missing?

1.Warfare and hunting tactics.
Why does warfare lead to hunting tactics? I could just as easily see it going the other way so personally I think it might be better if these 2 techs were independent of each other.

2. Seafaring.
Seafaring needs both locks and piracy to research.
Personally I don't feel that either one of these should be needed for a civilization to develop sea travel. On top of that by a game standpoint locks requires piracy to research it. So as is piracy is already needed to research the tech right before seafaring so its pointless to have it as a requirement again for seafaring.

3: locks.
After my last points. Why is piracy needed to research locks anyway? Landlocked civilization would have no need to research piracy and even without it could find a need for locks because of other criminal activity or foreign invaders.

4: Piracy.
I know i'm going all out here. Sorry.
Why does piracy unlock the cog merchants? Piracy should not allow trade by sea. I feel a better option would be to either add a new maritime trading tech or more likely push the cog merchant back to an earlier tech. Possibly trading.

5: Veterinary medicine needs magic.
Ok here's one I really don’t get. You can't learn how to apply your medical knowledge to animals without magic? Personally magic seems like something that should lead purely into other religious and social techs.

Anyway I just wanted to point out my thoughts on those. Over all I find the tech tree very detailed and well done.

 

[Mag Co]

I don't know, they all seem pretty logic to me.

Why does warfare lead to hunting tactics?

Because other humans were trated as animals no so many time ago. Slavery is literally human husbandry. Cannibalism was a natural thing on ancient societies, but on classical societies, at least according to Habernas and Gustavo Bueno, humanity addopted slavery when it left cannibalism.

Ok here's one I really don’t get. You can't learn how to apply your medical knowledge to animals without magic? Personally magic seems like something that should lead purely into other religious and social techs.

Because medicine and religion are strongly interconnected. On 19th Century everyone but the jews and the Chinese had no idea what disease exactly is, they called it "Bad Spirits" even in the civilized Europe. Mentally ill people were believe to be possesed or satanic, phisically ill people were believe to be sinners who deserve their suffering. The shaman is at the same time the chief, the medic and the great priest, the man who can control the Bad Spirits.

2. Seafaring.
Seafaring needs both locks and piracy to research.
Personally I don't feel that either one of these should be needed for a civilization to develop sea travel. On top of that by a game standpoint locks requires piracy to research it. So as is piracy is already needed to research the tech right before seafaring so its pointless to have it as a requirement again for seafaring.

Most european countries like Scotland, Portugal, Aragon or Castille didn't have marine levies until they needed a strong army for the porpuse of defending their commerce against the pirates from Neetherlands and England. We own modern Seafaring to pirates and monopolistic business like the dutch West India Company or English corporations of tea and cotton which, of course, employed a lot of pirates.
This also answers question 4, there were a lot more pirates on ocean and sea than on the coast. The Medieval Portuguese commerce with India, Japan and China was pretty safe.

 

[Thunderbrd]

First. I'm sorry but I haven’t read everything in this topic so if these were already covered I apologize but I've been looking for things that I find odd or out of place in my latest play though. The following techs just seem a little off to me mostly in how they are connected with other techs. Is there any logic for these that I’m missing?

1.Warfare and hunting tactics.
Why does warfare lead to hunting tactics? I could just as easily see it going the other way so personally I think it might be better if these 2 techs were independent of each other.

2. Seafaring.
Seafaring needs both locks and piracy to research.
Personally I don't feel that either one of these should be needed for a civilization to develop sea travel. On top of that by a game standpoint locks requires piracy to research it. So as is piracy is already needed to research the tech right before seafaring so its pointless to have it as a requirement again for seafaring.

3: locks.
After my last points. Why is piracy needed to research locks anyway? Landlocked civilization would have no need to research piracy and even without it could find a need for locks because of other criminal activity or foreign invaders.

4: Piracy.
I know i'm going all out here. Sorry.
Why does piracy unlock the cog merchants? Piracy should not allow trade by sea. I feel a better option would be to either add a new maritime trading tech or more likely push the cog merchant back to an earlier tech. Possibly trading.

5: Veterinary medicine needs magic.
Ok here's one I really don’t get. You can't learn how to apply your medical knowledge to animals without magic? Personally magic seems like something that should lead purely into other religious and social techs.

Anyway I just wanted to point out my thoughts on those. Over all I find the tech tree very detailed and well done.

I don't know, they all seem pretty logic to me.

Because other humans were trated as animals no so many time ago. Slavery is literally human husbandry. Cannibalism was a natural thing on ancient societies, but on classical societies, at least according to Habernas and Gustavo Bueno, humanity addopted slavery when it left cannibalism.


Because medicine and religion are strongly interconnected. On 19th Century everyone but the jews and the Chinese had no idea what disease exactly is, they called it "Bad Spirits" even in the civilized Europe. Mentally ill people were believe to be possesed or satanic, phisically ill people were believe to be sinners who deserve their suffering. The shaman is at the same time the chief, the medic and the great priest, the man who can control the Bad Spirits.


Most european countries like Scotland, Portugal, Aragon or Castille didn't have marine levies until they needed a strong army for the porpuse of defending their commerce against the pirates from Neetherlands and England. We own modern Seafaring to pirates and monopolistic business like the dutch West India Company or English corporations of tea and cotton which, of course, employed a lot of pirates.
This also answers question 4, there were a lot more pirates on ocean and sea than on the coast. The Medieval Portuguese commerce with India, Japan and China was pretty safe.

Some good suggestions to help consider the tech tree and potential causes for adjustment and some good arguments for the reasoning in which it currently exists.

At this point, a lot of the tree should be adjusted for game need as much as anything and the unit reviews coming up will be a major guide on that matter. You pointed out a few things to reconsider there too and I'll try to take those suggestions in mind when reviewing.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

5: Veterinary medicine needs magic.
Ok here's one I really don’t get. You can't learn how to apply your medical knowledge to animals without magic? Personally magic seems like something that should lead purely into other religious and social techs.

Anyway I just wanted to point out my thoughts on those. Over all I find the tech tree very detailed and well done.

Very simple answer to this - you need some consistant way of determining short periods time, eg minutes when you don't have any mechanisms to do so. The best ways of doing this is to count your heart beat or repeat a verse of some kind. A song, rhyme or prayer to some divine being of the correct duration. Latter peoples who have time pieces will call the old methods spells or incantations and assign mystical meaning to those practices.

 

[lightning551]

Thanks everyone.

I can understand the warfare one that way.

For veterinary medicine i'm not sure. Maybe I’m looking at it the wrong way. Is it supposed to represent new developments in medicine overall or just the specialized knowledge to be able to apply what you already know to animals?
If its the first that makes sense to me but I was thinking of it more of the second.

Most european countries like Scotland, Portugal, Aragon or Castille didn't have marine levies until they needed a strong army for the porpuse of defending their commerce against the pirates from Neetherlands and England. We own modern Seafaring to pirates and monopolistic business like the dutch West India Company or English corporations of tea and cotton which, of course, employed a lot of pirates.
This also answers question 4, there were a lot more pirates on ocean and sea than on the coast. The Medieval Portuguese commerce with India, Japan and China was pretty safe.

This still seems backwards to me. Seafaring is what opens up trade over the sea so wouldn't the trade ships be out at sea before the pirates started going after them?
Maybe switch seafaring and piracy on the tech tree. Move cog merchant to seafaring and seafarings warships to piracy?

 

[Toffer90]

This still seems backwards to me. Seafaring is what opens up trade over the sea so wouldn't the trade ships be out at sea before the pirates started going after them?
Maybe switch seafaring and piracy on the tech tree. Move cog merchant to seafaring and seafarings warships to piracy?

I agree that seafaring could develop without piracy, but for the sake of argument:
Piracy was, before seafaring, more about raiding coastal villages to gain slaves and loot than to disrupt trade.
Pirates dared the open sea due to necessity, they had to lay low and find alternative routes to avoid deadly confrontations.
One could say they were pioneers and that old pirate sailors probably were the most knowledgeable about navigating open sea at one point or another.
Areas that had much unhindered piracy along the coastline could also prompt the law abiding people into developing seafaring knowledge so to make trade and travel safer from piracy involvement.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I agree that seafaring could develop without piracy, but for the sake of argument:
Piracy was, before seafaring, more about raiding coastal villages to gain slaves and loot than to disrupt trade.
Pirates dared the open sea due to necessity, they had to lay low and find alternative routes to avoid deadly confrontations.
One could say they were pioneers and that old pirate sailors probably were the most knowledgeable about navigating open sea at one point or another.
Areas that had much unhindered piracy along the coastline could also prompt the law abiding people into developing seafaring knowledge so to make trade and travel safer from piracy involvement.

Could go either way with logical conclusions right? Chicken and the egg scenario really. Game effect wise I think it beneftis more from putting Seafaring second simply due to making it take a bit more of a beeline stretch to get one of the most powerfully boosting techs in the era. Seafaring is a huge boon and should well be down the hard earned side track it is.

That said, sailing is currently way too early OR we need to open up canoes and war canoes much earlier (probably more we need to open up canoes to much earlier.) Sailing, which unlocks Galleys, is actually now in the same column as the tech that unlocks War Canoes, which is a glaring problem that will need adjusting eventually.

I've seen a lot of stuff like this but I'm NOT making these tweaks until spreadsheeting basics are established so I can more easily tweak those spreadsheets right along with the changes to the mod directly. This is because if you pull on one string you pull on SO many other strings with this mod.

Many commenters may not realize how much work a small adjustment can end up being and how blind we developers might be to how many things that small adjustment impacts until we have the tools (and keep up with adjusting them) of spreadsheets to alert us to all those interconnections.

We cannot just willy nilly adjust where a tech is... that's actually a fairly serious project to remap the full impact of a small adjustment there. Therefore, a commenter MAY feel dismissed or that the team just looks for reasons not to react, but the reality is, we're (I'm speaking for the team, but perhaps it's more just me) currently trying to let what we have settle into place long enough to map out all these interconnections - THEN we'll take another look at some irrationalities and try to address them.

In the meantime, we may share some reasons why things are as they currently are and put anything to debate, but actual changes are something I think we're all reluctant to do without deep analysis and cause of gameplay as much as rationale - and historical accuracy is also taken into account to a degree.

Point being, don't stop making suggestions and bringing up items of discussion. It's a good exercise. But also don't expect us to change much right away as a change is NOT trivial no matter how trivial it may appear to be at first.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

It all comes back to what we mean by Sea in C2C.

• Coastal = insight of land
• Sea = just over the horizon from land
  
• Ocean = well away from land

What C2C does not have is

• currents that connect a region
  • eg Norway to Iceland and all points between (and a wind that goes back the other way just a bit south/north, I forget, of this that makes two way easier)
  • the Bosphorus has two currents one above and below, they used t use large stones as "sails" to go one way.
• oceanic swells with a wave length of an oceanic canoe (or is it a person) like they have in the Pacific that lets you navigate lying down
• protected seas like the Mediterrainean, Caspian etc where going over the horizon is not really going far and they have been crossing since way before the Pyramids. (see history of Malta)

 

[tmv]

Sailing, which unlocks Galleys, is actually now in the same column as the tech that unlocks War Canoes

While this is true, War Canoes don't upgrade to Galleys but to War Galleys (which requires Naval Warfare). And Galleys usually lose against War Canoes IIRC.

 

[Thunderbrd]

While this is true, War Canoes don't upgrade to Galleys but to War Galleys (which requires Naval Warfare). And Galleys usually lose against War Canoes IIRC.

Canoe should pair with War Canoe and Galley should pair with War Galley, at least for the most part. This needs sorted out so as not to come across dramatically anachronistic as it does now.