Tech Tree Discussion

[UncivilizedGuy]

Writing is bit early, but right on beginning of Classical era we have Currency, Mathematics, Iron Working and Alphabet as examples of major tech.
So start of iron age or development of Mathematics or Alphabet would fit better.

I have no qualms with the beginning of the Classical era. I think that can be debated. Agriculture on the other hand, appeared around 9000 BCE, not 6000 BCE. The way the techs are layed out is ok. I was just pointing out the actual definitions of the eras. In other words, how historians define the eras. They don't consider the Neolithic to be part of the Ancient era, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_history. The Neolithic is still Prehistory. Obviously history is defined by what was recorded and nothing was really recorded before the invention of Writing.

 

[raxo2222]

I have no qualms with the beginning of the Classical era. I think that can be debated. Agriculture on the other hand, appeared around 9000 BCE, not 6000 BCE. The way the techs are layed out is ok. I was just pointing out the actual definitions of the eras. In other words, how historians define the eras. They don't consider the Neolithic to be part of the Ancient era, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_history. The Neolithic is still Prehistory. Obviously history is defined by what was recorded and nothing was really recorded before the invention of Writing.

Ah its fine, you missed my earlier post by the way.
Here I listed when all eras begin as ingame calendar is defined (bit roughly)

By the way what would be Paleolithic and Mesolithic periods in Prehistoric era? I posted link to tech tree screenshot in my previous post.
Would be Paleolithic up to Tribalism, and Mesolithic be in between Tribalism and Animal domestication techs (dogs, cats, cattle, horses and so on)?

 

[UncivilizedGuy]

Well I wasn't expecting to go as far as adding the Mesolithic. The Mesolithic begins around 13000 BCE. About the same time as the earliest evidence of Warfare. The Paleolithic would be the first era of course. The Neolithic would begin with Sedentary Lifestyle. The Ancient era would begin with Writing.

 

[raxo2222]

Well I wasn't expecting to go as far as adding the Mesolithic. The Mesolithic is defined by the use of Microliths. So I guess you would have to go back to that tech. The Paleolithic would be the first era of course. The Neolithic would begin with Sedentary Lifestyle. The Ancient era would begin with Writing.

Mesolithic and Paleolithic would roughly divide prehistoric era in two.
Writing is one column away from Bronze Working.

So if you wanted tech tree to have accurate era definitions, then Prehistoric and Ancient would be gone.
Nomadic Lifestyle would be renamed to Paleolithic Lifestyle.
Paleolithic would last all way until column before Microlith. This tech and others in same column would be right after Mesolithic Lifestyle.
Between Mesolithic Lifestyle and Sedentary Lifestyle (would be renamed to Neolithic Lifestyle) would be Mesolithic era.
Neolithic Era would last all way to Writing.
Classical Lifestyle would be between Writing and Bronze Working, that is Classical Lifestyle would start with Bronze Working.
Classical Era could be renamed to Antique Era or something like that.

This would mean total mayhem in surrounding areas and would break saves.

By the way what do you think about starting dates of later eras?

 

[UncivilizedGuy]

Mesolithic and Paleolithic would roughly divide prehistoric era in two.
Writing is one column away from Bronze Working.

So if you wanted tech tree to have accurate era definitions, then Prehistoric and Ancient would be gone.
Nomadic Lifestyle would be renamed to Paleolithic Lifestyle.
Paleolithic would last all way until column before Microlith. This tech and others in same column would be right after Mesolithic Lifestyle.
Between Mesolithic Lifestyle and Sedentary Lifestyle (would be renamed to Neolithic Lifestyle) would be Mesolithic era.
Neolithic Era would last all way to Writing.
Classical Lifestyle would be between Writing and Bronze Working, that is Classical Lifestyle would start with Bronze Working.
Classical Era could be renamed to Antique Era or something like that.

This would mean total mayhem in surrounding areas and would break saves.

By the way what do you think about starting dates of later eras?

That half way point is certainly convenient but I did some reading into Microliths and decided that beginning the Mesolithic at that point on the tech tree wouldn't be accurate. Microliths went through an evolution from 35000 BCE to 13000 BCE. Microliths reached their most advanced state at 13000 BCE where archaeologists begin the Mesolithic. It would be better to start the Mesolithic at the column that includes Warfare and maybe add a new tech called Advanced Microliths.

If you begin the Classical era at Writing then I would simply rename it to Ancient era. That's what historians do.

I don't expect you to get this crazy but historians use a very general, all inclusive era system that encompasses all of human history that looks like this:

• Prehistory (up to the beginning of Writing)
• Ancient (begins at Writing and includes Classical era)
• Postclassical (begins at the fall of Rome, includes Medieval and beginning of Renaissance and ends at the invention of the Printing Press about 1450 AD)
• Modern (Printing Press to the end of WWII)
• Contemporary (1945 to today)

I don't expect you to do this. It doesn't make sense for gameplay purposes.

The only real complaint about the later eras that I have is the Renaissance. It's extremely eurocentric. I would simply rename it Early Modern. Early Modern is the widely accepted name of that era.

 

[raxo2222]

That half way point is certainly convenient but I did some reading into Microliths and decided that beginning the Mesolithic at that point on the tech tree wouldn't be accurate. Microliths went through an evolution from 35000 BCE to 13000 BCE. Microliths reached their most advanced state at 13000 BCE where archaeologists begin the Mesolithic. It would be better to start the Mesolithic at the column that includes Warfare and maybe add a new tech called Advanced Microliths.

If you begin the Classical era at Writing then I would simply rename it to Ancient era. That's what historians do.

I don't expect you to get this crazy but historians use a very general, all inclusive era system that encompasses all of human history that looks like this:

• Prehistory (up to the beginning of Writing)
• Ancient (begins at Writing and includes Classical era)
• Postclassical (begins at the fall of Rome, includes Medieval and beginning of Renaissance and ends at the invention of the Printing Press about 1450 AD)
• Modern (Printing Press to the end of WWII)
• Contemporary (1945 to today)

I don't expect you to do this. It doesn't make sense for gameplay purposes.

The only real complaint about the later eras that I have is the Renaissance. It's extremely eurocentric. I would simply rename it Early Modern. Early Modern is the widely accepted name of that era.

Interesting, I was asking about it mainly from curiosity by the way.
This change would break things, even only if eras before Medieval era would be revised.

I think someone wanted to rename Modern era to Atomic era.

By the way I still didn't hear your opinion on those era starting dates:
Prehistoric - 200 000 BCE
Ancient - 6000 BCE
Classical - 2000 BCE
Medieval - 600 AD
Renaissance - 1300
Industrial - 1700
Modern - 1900
Information - 1990 (Half of this era belongs to future)
Nanotech - 2050 - Moon/Mars/Venus colonization, fun things include AI, Nanotechnology and Fusion.
Transhuman - 2150 - Solar System colonization. Cybernetics, AI, and Nanotechnology are at full swing. You can life only by power of sun if you are a robot
Galactic - 2300 - Galaxy colonization. Faster than Light travel becomes available at some point.
Cosmic - 3000 - Universe colonization. Time Travel, Pico/Femto/Zeptotechnology is unlocked.
Transcendent - 4000 - Final Frontier. calendar refers to Earth date since Galactic era. Can get into black hole and back or beyond observable universe or even ascend to high dimensional space.
Future - 6000

There are screenshots of tech tree, that I showed earlier.
Are those good enough considering where era begins in tech tree?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Historians argue about eras all the time. The time frames here are very Mediterranean oriented, being based the Middle East, Nile valley and Europe.

There is an argument going on at the moment on whether or not WWI and WWII should really be called WWIII and WWIV (or more controversially WWIV and WWV). There are two world wide wars between the French and English before the two between the Germans and the English. Battles were fought across the world. In the Americas, in Africa as well as Europe and Asia. The argument over WWI being in the bronze age is more about evidence at this point. Was fought on three continents or just had armies from Africa (Egypt), Europe and Asia? I.E. was it big enough or was it just confined to one small area near Troy?

 

[UncivilizedGuy]

Interesting, I was asking about it mainly from curiosity by the way.
This change would break things, even only if eras before Medieval era would be revised.

I think someone wanted to rename Modern era to Atomic era.

By the way I still didn't hear your opinion on those era starting dates:
Prehistoric - 200 000 BCE
Ancient - 6000 BCE
Classical - 2000 BCE
Medieval - 600 AD
Renaissance - 1300
Industrial - 1700
Modern - 1900
Information - 1990 (Half of this era belongs to future)
Nanotech - 2050 - Moon/Mars/Venus colonization, fun things include AI, Nanotechnology and Fusion.
Transhuman - 2150 - Solar System colonization. Cybernetics, AI, and Nanotechnology are at full swing. You can life only by power of sun if you are a robot
Galactic - 2300 - Galaxy colonization. Faster than Light travel becomes available at some point.
Cosmic - 3000 - Universe colonization. Time Travel, Pico/Femto/Zeptotechnology is unlocked.
Transcendent - 4000 - Final Frontier. calendar refers to Earth date since Galactic era. Can get into black hole and back or beyond observable universe or even ascend to high dimensional space.
Future - 6000

There are screenshots of tech tree, that I showed earlier.
Are those good enough considering where era begins in tech tree?

This is not my ideal era system but assuming you keep the era names as they are now:

Prehistoric- 200000 BCE
Ancient - 10000 BCE if you start with Agriculture (4000 BCE if you start at Writing)
Classical - 1000 BCE
Medieval - 500
Renaissance - 1300 (1450 if you start at Printing Press)
Industrial - 1750 begins with Steam Power (1700 is acceptable if you go to the beginning of the factory system)
Modern - 1890 (1850 if you start with Steel)
Information - 1990
Future eras - no opinion

If you switch to Atomic Era then the start date would be 1939

 

[Yudishtira]

The Cloning tech cannot be used until the Cloned Mammal project is completed. This means you can do nothing else with cloning until a century later (minimum). Virtually the whole of the Biopunk tech is also dependent on the Cloning Lab (ok I didn't check that on v38+ so hopefully that's already changed)

Surely this is the wrong way round. You need a Cloning Lab before you can clone a mammal (or anything else).

If you don't agree about the Cloning Lab, it is a prereq for the Stem Cell Lab, and thence the Fertility Clinic. Yet stem cell research and in-vitro (IVF) were already firmly established when cloning (and even gene manipulation) was still pure sci-fi.

 

[KaTiON_PT]

What do you mean by you can't do nothing until a century later?
Any how in the latest version the First Cloned Animal project is made available with Cloning.

 

[raxo2222]

The Cloning tech cannot be used until the Cloned Mammal project is completed. This means you can do nothing else with cloning until a century later (minimum). Virtually the whole of the Biopunk tech is also dependent on the Cloning Lab (ok I didn't check that on v38+ so hopefully that's already changed)

Surely this is the wrong way round. You need a Cloning Lab before you can clone a mammal (or anything else).

If you don't agree about the Cloning Lab, it is a prereq for the Stem Cell Lab, and thence the Fertility Clinic. Yet stem cell research and in-vitro (IVF) were already firmly established when cloning (and even gene manipulation) was still pure sci-fi.

You might have very old version - First Cloned Mammal and Cloning Labolatory is unlocked at Cloning.
Projects are only slightly more expensive than wonders in same tech column (they are discounted - global values are 105 for buildings/wonders/units and 70 or so with projects and SM units compared to 630 for techs).
Any issues with prereqs unlocked later than buildings themselves were fixed in SVN.

 

[Yudishtira]

I have the latest version. The Cloning Lab is unlocked at Cloning but that is meaningless because the Cloned Mammal is a prereq for it. The Cloned Mammal takes a century to complete. Do you understand me now?

 

[KaTiON_PT]

How can it take a century to complete? As raxo said it's only slightly more expensive than a wonder.

 

[Yudishtira]

Ok my bad. The project is much cheaper now. I still think it makes no sense for the project to be prereq for the lab.

What about the Stem Cell Lab and Fertility Clinic? Why do they require Cloning and the project and the lab? If anything, they were steps on the way to cloning, not the other way round.

 

[raxo2222]

Ok my bad. The project is much cheaper now. I still think it makes no sense for the project to be prereq for the lab.

What about the Stem Cell Lab and Fertility Clinic? Why do they require Cloning and the project and the lab? If anything, they were steps on the way to cloning, not the other way round.

Project unlocks cloning lab for everyone currently as it was since always.
Cloning would be pretty much empty tech if it wasn't for those two other buildings.
What other building could cloning project unlock?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Ok my bad. The project is much cheaper now. I still think it makes no sense for the project to be prereq for the lab.

What about the Stem Cell Lab and Fertility Clinic? Why do they require Cloning and the project and the lab? If anything, they were steps on the way to cloning, not the other way round.

The project is the think that proves Cloning is possible rather than theoretical. I think that was the logic.

I agree that the Fertility Clinic should not need the project. In fact it should reduce the cost of the project if possible.

Stem Cell Lab should come after the project to match our history, if I am remembering correctly.

 

[raxo2222]

The project is the think that proves Cloning is possible rather than theoretical. I think that was the logic.

I agree that the Fertility Clinic should not need the project. In fact it should reduce the cost of the project if possible.

Stem Cell Lab should come after the project to match our history, if I am remembering correctly.

Fertility Clinic requires Genetic Biochemistry tech and Stem Cell Lab, that needs Cloning Lab that needs cloning project.
That is Cloning Lab is only proxy prereq for Fertility Clinic.
Genetic Biochemistry is one column later than Cloning.

 

[Yudishtira]

The project is the think that proves Cloning is possible rather than theoretical. I think that was the logic.

Yeah but amphibian and fish cloning had already proven cloning possible, dating back to the 50s and 60s.

I agree that the Fertility Clinic should not need the project. In fact it should reduce the cost of the project if possible.

Stem Cell Lab should come after the project to match our history, if I am remembering correctly.

Human embryonic stem cells were first "derived" in 1998, apparently, two years after Dolly was born, so in that sense you are correct. However, one was not a development from the other. Researching techs out of historical order is a major part of the game...

 

[raxo2222]

Yeah but amphibian and fish cloning had already proven cloning possible, dating back to the 50s and 60s.


Human embryonic stem cells were first "derived" in 1998, apparently, two years after Dolly was born, so in that sense you are correct. However, one was not a development from the other. Researching techs out of historical order is a major part of the game...

These techs only roughly follow real world historical developments - you would end up beelining one or two columns pretty often if you wanted to go along historical route of world wide tech development.

Fun fact:
Vast majority of techs will be researched two eras later.
There is plenty of techs, that can wait one era though.
Excluding religions, punks, and few other techs (Megafauna Domestication, Waterproof Concrete, Lead Glass and Mountaineering) all techs will be eventually researched.
Techs, that won't be researched, if you reach X lifestyle (only listing techs with at least two eras of space):

Classical Lifestyle:
Prehistoric - Feline/Poultry/Elephant/Camelid Domestication, Falconry, Animal Riding.

Medieval Lifestyle:
Prehistoric - Feline/Elephant/Camelid Domestication, Animal Riding.
Ancient - Mummification, Soap/Candle Making, Veterinary Medicine.

Renaissance Lifestyle:
Prehistoric - Camelid Domestication.
Ancient - Mummification.
Classical - Mounted Archery.

Industrial Lifestyle:
Ancient - Mummification.
Medieval - Fire Brigades, Crop Rotation, Commercial Whaling.

Modern Lifestyle:
Renaissance - Oil Painting, Free Artistry, Mine Warfare, Hot Air Balloon.

Those lifestyle techs below have OR requirements.
None to all of those techs might be researched by selecting one OR prereq.
Information Lifestyle <Guided Weapons OR Volcanology OR Space Stations OR Composites OR Extreme Sports>:
Industrial - Emancipation, Meteorology, Lawn/Water/Motor Sports, Realism, Impressionism, Women Suffrage, Cubism, Expressionism, Animation.

Nanotech Lifestyle <Jovian Exploration OR Marine Architecture OR Affective Algorithms or Personalized Health OR Graphene Alloys>
Modern - Biological Warfare, Volcanology.

Transhuman Lifestyle <Cloaking OR Personal Robots OR Lunar Trade OR Designer Microbiology OR Hypothetical Biochemistry or Supercharged Crystallography>:
Information - Planetary Exploration, Solar Propulsion, Jovian Exploration.

Galactic Lifestyle:<Nuclear Pulse Propulsion OR Nanotroids>:
No tech left behind for two eras.

Cosmic Lifestyle: <Neutrino Communications OR Folding Space>:
No tech left behind for two eras.

Transcendent Lifestyle: <Mensiokinesis OR Fantasy Materials OR Grand Unification Biology OR Stable Time Loops OR Cosmic Engineering or Tachyon Communication>:
No tech left behind for two eras.

 

[Yudishtira]

Fertility Clinic requires Genetic Biochemistry tech and Stem Cell Lab, that needs Cloning Lab that needs cloning project.
That is Cloning Lab is only proxy prereq for Fertility Clinic.
Genetic Biochemistry is one column later than Cloning.

You can easily have Genetic Biochem before Cloning. And even if not, you can delay the Dolly project indefinitely (it's still scary expensive after all)

Not that Genetic Biochem makes much more sense than Cloning as a prereq for the clinic...