Tech Tree Discussion

[raxo2222]

You can easily have Genetic Biochem before Cloning. And even if not, you can delay the Dolly project indefinitely (it's still scary expensive after all)

Not that Genetic Biochem makes much more sense than Cloning as a prereq for the clinic...

Well one of its building prereqs requires Genetic Biochemistry.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Thinking on it I feel the Cloning Tech is not needed at all. The project fills the need instead.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Thinking on it I feel the Cloning Tech is not needed at all. The project fills the need instead.

There's more to it than proving it can be done. Much like the Fission tech enables nukes once you have your manhattan project, an ongoing technological development to further enable cloning would be needed after the project shows it possible.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

There's more to it than proving it can be done. Much like the Fission tech enables nukes once you have your manhattan project, an ongoing technological development to further enable cloning would be needed after the project shows it possible.

Then it needs to be moved much earlier in the tree.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Then it needs to be moved much earlier in the tree.

Or multiple stages better defined. I'm not attached to any positioning on it though.

 

[KaTiON_PT]

While I was in undergrad I learned that cloning (as something done in labs) is a thing that begun around the time of WW2.

First it was simple stuff with cells (see stem cells) and then it went up progressively in terms of complexity until it culminated in the 90's with the first cloned mammal, which I think is what the tech that's in game symbolises.

In that sense, I agree that Stem Cell Lab shouldn't require the Cloning Lab. Or make the Stem Cell Lab a prerequisite for Cloning Lab (and rename this one to Animal Cloning Lab to make it more obvious).

EDIT: Or move the Cloning Lab to the technology mainstream cloning.

EDIT 2: Actually, checking out this in-game I'm now more of the opinion that everything in cloning should be in Mainstream Cloning. And either remove the Cloning tech or keep it for the First Cloned Mammal project and to serve as an OR requirement for Mainstream Cloning. What do you think @raxo2222?

 

[Noriad2]

Out of curiosity, what column would represent 5 000 BCE technologies?

Copper age starts at 5000 BC. Copper working was invented in current-day Serbia around 5000 BC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalcolithic

Bronze age starts about 3500 BC.

Iron age starts about 1200 BC.

The classical age begins somewhere between 800 and 500 BC depending on which civ you look at, and lasts to about 500 A.D. However, in-game, iron working comes after Classical lifestyle.

The Natufians in the Middle East adopted sedentism lifestyle at about 12,000 BC and invented Agriculture about 10,000 BC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedentism

With these dates, the tech tree (agriculture after sedentism) makes sense.

However, one or more of the modders here have, for reasons completely unknown to me, unilaterally and erroneously decided that Sedentism occurs at 6000 BC which would completely mess up the order of that part of the tech tree and has confused discussions on this forum ever since. Luckily the tech tree hasn't been mutilated (yet) based on that error, only the in-game calendar date.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Copper age starts at 5000 BC. Copper working was invented in current-day Serbia around 5000 BC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalcolithic

Bronze age starts about 3500 BC.

Iron age starts about 1200 BC.

The classical age begins somewhere between 800 and 500 BC depending on which civ you look at, and lasts to about 500 A.D. However, in-game, iron working comes after Classical lifestyle.

The Natufians in the Middle East adopted sedentism lifestyle at about 12,000 BC and invented Agriculture about 10,000 BC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedentism

With these dates, the tech tree (agriculture after sedentism) makes sense.

However, one or more of the modders here have, for reasons completely unknown to me, unilaterally and erroneously decided that Sedentism occurs at 6000 BC which would completely mess up the order of that part of the tech tree and has confused discussions on this forum ever since. Luckily the tech tree hasn't been mutilated (yet) based on that error, only the in-game calendar date.

The 6000BC date was Thunderbtrd's decision which I had No objection to. Your erroneous assumption that Wikipedia is an authority in any of this is what is truly confounding. There is No such positive proof, only speculation and theory that any of these dates and ppls you quoted are truly recorded history. Just archaeological suppositions and theories. No more no less. And since this is a Non Historical Mod but rather a What If mod what does it truly matter? It actually does not. But your advocation of adopting these is nonsensical in and of itself.

 

[Noriad2]

And since this is a Non Historical Mod but rather a What If mod what does it truly matter?

If you argue 'why do it right if you can also do it wrong instead' I guess there's no arguing against that. And if actual history is not a guideline, you might as well add wizards and dragons.

 

[raxo2222]

The 6000BC date was Thunderbtrd's decision which I had No objection to. Your erroneous assumption that Wikipedia is an authority in any of this is what is truly confounding. There is No such positive proof, only speculation and theory that any of these dates and ppls you quoted are truly recorded history. Just archaeological suppositions and theories. No more no less. And since this is a Non Historical Mod but rather a What If mod what does it truly matter? It actually does not. But your advocation of adopting these is nonsensical in and of itself.

Well so all sources behind wikipedia articles are lying too?
Is time travel only way to verify our past? Better to have educated "guess" than nothing.
One stranger on internet < thousands, if not tens of thousands of scientists, historians, archeologists and paleontologists, who try to discover our past.
Why we have to listen to colorblind guy, who thinks sky without clouds during day isn't some sort of blue?

I guess it wouldn't matter for you, if universe was created last Thursday with all its things being already here and there.

If you argue 'why do it right if you can also do it wrong instead' I guess there's no arguing against that. And if actual history is not a guideline, you might as well add wizards and dragons.

I chose 6000 BC as I picked old dates for "historic" part.
Calendar slows down at 10 000 BC (80% of Prehistoric era) though.

Ironically future content allows way too much fun for advanced civilizations.
Wouldn't be surprised, if one of C2C timelines has universe like Marvel or Lovecraft or Joseph or billions of other people imagined (looking at Transcendent era with its total creativity freedom for modders and civs in this era)
That is for historic part we can as well pick timeline, where most scientists agree as to what when roughly was.
Basically future content justifies breaks from reality, but we should be close to our reality (no magic dust or unicorns before Transhuman era).

To be honest other civilization could spend 20 000 years in Ancient era technology level just to blitz trough Classical/Medieval/Renaissance eras within 500 years, especially in C2C universe.

Here is other set of dates:

This is not my ideal era system but assuming you keep the era names as they are now:

Prehistoric- 200000 BCE
Ancient - 10000 BCE if you start with Agriculture (4000 BCE if you start at Writing)
Classical - 1000 BCE
Medieval - 500
Renaissance - 1300 (1450 if you start at Printing Press)
Industrial - 1750 begins with Steam Power (1700 is acceptable if you go to the beginning of the factory system)
Modern - 1890 (1850 if you start with Steel)
Information - 1990
Future eras - no opinion

If you switch to Atomic Era then the start date would be 1939

Not sure if he actually looked at techs around Lifestyle points though for later eras.
It would mean only step resizing in calendar - amount of turns per era is calculated, so lengths of eras wouldn't change.

 

[Thunderbrd]

My selection of 6000 BC was based on the birth of Sumerian cities but I can accept the alternative arguments for other datings as well. Was all just something to go off of. A lot of new information has come forward since the 20 yrs ago I was as up to date as I could be about pre-recorded history.

 

[raxo2222]

My selection of 6000 BC was based on the birth of Sumerian cities but I can accept the alternative arguments for other datings as well. Was all just something to go off of. A lot of new information has come forward since the 20 yrs ago I was as up to date as I could be about pre-recorded history.

Since half of civs are meant to reach era before calendar target there would be some civs, that reached agriculture before 6000 BC (8000 BC for example is around 9% of game).
So if out of 10 civs 5 reaches Sedentary Lifestyle on 6000 BC, then things are properly balanced - average would be in proper place and it allows room for variations.
WFL, TD, Upscaled Research/Construction costs, Tech Trading/Brokering are here to use if you go regularly ahead or behind calendar.
Changing date targets would only change step sizes.

10 000 BC as starting date could even make some civs reach agriculture way before agriculture was historically developed.
Essentially 6000 BC as mean date for sedentary lifestyle is very conservative, but it is safe too.
Also calendar runs slower past 10 000 BC.
Aren't techs placed around tech tree, where things already were discovered and spread a little bit?

I said before C2C universe allows for more fun stuff to happen, than in our universe, as space colonization, FTL/time travel, Pico (and tinier scales)technology and more speculative stuff is possible in C2C.
This means we have freedom to pick more or less realistic dates for beginning of era.
And this means "I don't believe, that X happened (or didn't)" argument is invalid - we should stay fairly close to our current knowledge all way to end of Nanotech era.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Well so all sources behind wikipedia articles are lying too?

Did I say that? No I did not.

Now you put stances and words into play that are trying to label. Why?

In truth none of those sources are 100% verifiably accurate information. But if you feel the need to blindly trust Wiki then who am I to tell you what to believe? But I'm also just as sure you will tell me what I Should believe though.

Don't mock.

 

[raxo2222]

Did I say that? No I did not.

Now you put stances and words into play that are trying to label. Why?

In truth none of those sources are 100% verifiably accurate information. But if you feel the need to blindly trust Wiki then who am I to tell you what to believe? But I'm also just as sure you will tell me what I Should believe though.

Don't mock.

Bribery, conflict of interest and politics aside scientists have no reason to actively lie, though secondary/trinary/quaternary sources may mess up something.
Things not being 100% verifiable isn't much of obstacle here.
Just pick most probable things.

A lot of, if not most of descriptions in game are from wikipedia or its sources.
Same with tech and building/unit/resource/improvement placement in tech tree and era targets.
Future content descriptions has mix of wikipedia and other pedia style websites, sometimes primary/secondary sources.

For whatif mod like this one, especially containing possibility of aliens, that can mess around (could be actively implemented trough events, punk style techs and space barbarians), trinary/quaternary sources and their approximation aren't too bad.
Wikipedia is more of low hanging fruit - why hunt for primary sources for whatif mod, if there is readily available trinary/quaternary source in one place, even if it might be misleading in some things?

What would be your sources for description of 175 civics, 941 techs, tens of terrains/features/improvements, hundreds of resources and thousands of buildings and units?
And for beginning of eras, tech placement and building/resource/improvement placement in tech tree?
I wouldn't be surprised, if using wikipedia was tradition since Rise of Mankind started its development or even earlier (Mods before RoM or even game itself).

Basically usage of wikipedia could be as well 10 - 15 year old tradition (since RoM/C2C or even vanilla Civ4 existed).
And for whatif mod sources like wikipedia should be good enough - way more variables are in mod than in our world.

 

[raxo2222]

While I was in undergrad I learned that cloning (as something done in labs) is a thing that begun around the time of WW2.

First it was simple stuff with cells (see stem cells) and then it went up progressively in terms of complexity until it culminated in the 90's with the first cloned mammal, which I think is what the tech that's in game symbolises.

In that sense, I agree that Stem Cell Lab shouldn't require the Cloning Lab. Or make the Stem Cell Lab a prerequisite for Cloning Lab (and rename this one to Animal Cloning Lab to make it more obvious).

EDIT: Or move the Cloning Lab to the technology mainstream cloning.

EDIT 2: Actually, checking out this in-game I'm now more of the opinion that everything in cloning should be in Mainstream Cloning. And either remove the Cloning tech or keep it for the First Cloned Mammal project and to serve as an OR requirement for Mainstream Cloning. What do you think @raxo2222?

Cloning Lab is required by buildings unlocked before Mainstream Cloning.
Crime - Unlicensed Cloning can be definitely moved to Mainstram Cloning.

Stem Cell Lab requires 4 buildings - 4 or more techs by proxy:
Cloud Computing tech by itself.
Cloning Laboratory - Cloning.
Bioinformatics Lab - Bioinformatics.
Digital Offices - Cloud Computing and Media Psychology.
Forensics Lab - Forensics.
Stem Cell Lab would need to have their prereqs removed if moved to past.
Also it needs following resources: Enzymes (Molecular Biology), Biopolymers (Biomaterials) and Computers (Early Computing/Personal Computers).

As for First Cloned Mammal it is in good place, if it didn't unlocked Cloning Laboratory, then it would be absolutely useless - it doesn't do anything else.

 

[raxo2222]

I'll revise other Modern and later crimes, since I moved Unloncesed Cloning from Cloning to Mainstream Cloning.
Crimes will be moved to later techs, that are effectively more advanced versions.
Aircraft Hijacking: Flight -> Aviation.

I'm not sure about Internet Fraud and Online Piracy crime - were they a thing in 1990's?
They are placed on beginning part of Information era.
Other crimes are at good places.

Here is tech tree in its full glory.
Well over 30% of techs are future stuff.
There are also cool buildings, that need space terrain - that is space map scenarios.
By coincidence at around 50+-5% of game civilizations start experimenting with space - with Advanced Rocketry you build infrastructure for NASA and with Satellites you actually make first space units for exploration.
Actual space colonization starts at 63+-5% of game with Nanotech era.

 

[tmv]

I'm not sure about Internet Fraud and Online Piracy crime - were they a thing in 1990's?
They are placed on beginning part of Information era.

Oh yes - it just wasn't the majority of the emails sent back then.

Remember Nigerian Royalty? That particular scam started in the 90s already. Spam was already a thing as well. As were hoaxes (I remember the rumor about a virus that could break off your read/write head). Malware was far less worms or trojans and more "real" viruses.

 

[pepper2000]

I'm not sure about Internet Fraud and Online Piracy crime - were they a thing in 1990's?

If anything, it was worse. Spam filters were not well developed, and there weren't the same kind of gatekeepers like the Apple Store and YouTube to enforce copyright and general standards of conduct. The joke in the nineties, when the first wave of dot com companies were struggling to make a profit, is that the only viable Internet business models were porn and piracy.

 

[raxo2222]

@KaTiON_PT now you can revise tech quotes/history/strategy
There is error in Mysticism strategy text - color highlight tag is broken.

 

[KaTiON_PT]

@raxo2222 trying to untangle the industrial era a bit, what do you think?