Tech Tree Discussion

The problem is that that way tends to end any games far before the later eras.
If we want to fight the "Three mods" issue, then the challenge needs to be kept up. And one solution is to make it hard to run away too far by giving you a penalty if you are too far ahead (or any of the AIs is too far ahead). This means you can still get ahead but the further ahead the harder it gets unlike now when it actually gets easier and easier when you have a headstart.

Ends before the later eras for them maybe. I'm firmly in the modern era quite often. Every now and then I even reach the Transhuman era. That is the whole point of it, though. It is amusing to me to blow up peoples wooden ships with my super carriers and nuke primitive shacks guarded by archers. If they don't want to get left behind then maybe they should stop being so dumb and lazy? I was able to split the atom and get into space, why can't you?

Basically, I'm the kind of player who gets really happy when I realize I was the only civ to spawn on a continent and will gleefully just research for thousands of turns by myself without ever bothering to try to find other people. Then when they find me I will still ignore them until someone annoys me, then I send a few tanks over their way and remove them from existence within ten turns or so.

But, hey, as I said, I really don't care what you end up implementing as long as I have the option to not use it. Options are important.
 
"If they don't want to get left behind then maybe they should stop being so dumb and lazy? I was able to split the atom and get into space, why can't you?"

I agree. Before any radical changes are implemented, can we please just make the AI play better?

Having inexperienced players being competitive at deity is just not right.

Techs are naturally exponential in their benefits. And that is how it should be. The more advanced you are, the faster you advance. Such is the nature of technology.

If the AI doesn't want to get left in the dust, then they should learn to play better.

Note, I hope this does not come off as denigrating the work all the devs have put into the AI. It's truly admirable. Just...

Having inexperienced players being competitive at deity is just not right.
 
"If they don't want to get left behind then maybe they should stop being so dumb and lazy? I was able to split the atom and get into space, why can't you?"

I agree. Before any radical changes are implemented, can we please just make the AI play better?

Having inexperienced players being competitive at deity is just not right.

Techs are naturally exponential in their benefits. And that is how it should be. The more advanced you are, the faster you advance. Such is the nature of technology.

If the AI doesn't want to get left in the dust, then they should learn to play better.

Note, I hope this does not come off as denigrating the work all the devs have put into the AI. It's truly admirable. Just...

Having inexperienced players being competitive at deity is just not right.

The AI is much better now than in V26, which is good. However, I do think that some looking at Tech Diffusion and possible refinements to it's algorithms should be done during the Long Freeze, that would help considerably in delaying the steamroll effect.
 
Here is part 2 of my remapping/recosting proposal. This covers all of the Medieval Era.

This is what my proposed map looks like:
View attachment 334016

There are two changes to prerequisites that I did add:

Mountaineering
Required Techs: Invention

I think Mountaineering was always supposed to require Invention. It currently requires Alchemy. This may have been overlooked when we split Alchemy off from Invention.

Islam
Required Techs: Feudalism AND Fundamentalism AND Resurrection

The reason here is to move Islam from the end of the Medieval Era to the middle. Islam did a lot of early spreading by conquest.

So, this is how I created the new map. The level system that I use breaks down excellently for the Medieval Era, with 7 columns and 6 levels:
  • Level 1: 6 techs
  • Level 2: 13 techs
  • Level 3: 8 techs
  • Level 4: 7 techs
  • Level 5: 2 techs
  • Level 6: 6 techs

Each level gets one column all to itself, and Level 2 gets broken down over 2 columns. I put the more valuable level-2 technologies that lead directly into level-3 Medieval techs in the further column so they would be more expensive.

When I started arranging techs, I found that keeping technologies as close as possible to their prerequisites allowed me to break the era into three main blocks of Gods, Kings, and Engineers.
  • Gods is the smallest block: it contains 6 technologies stemming off of Theology.
  • Kings is the biggest block: it contains 13 technologies stemming off of Feudalism.
  • Engineers is the middle in size: 11 technologies. However, it is the gateway to Education (via Engineering - Surveying - Architecture - Stained Glass - Education).
  • There are then four techs left over as orphans: Civil Service, Usury, Rudder and Fire Brigades.

The last two columns are where we have the second major bottleneck of the Tech Tree: Education (Sedentary Lifestyle is the first). The only other tech on the same level is Chivalry, and that only leads to the dead-end of Clockpunk, the off-in-the-distance tech of Leadership, and Tournaments, which has a long way to go before it leads into Dueling. Education is required for the other 4 techs of the end of the Medieval Era, and is a direct prerequisite for 5 of the 6 starting techs of the Renaissance. The only one that isn't directly required is Calculus, but it requires Algebra, which also requires Education. So there is no getting to the Renaissance Era without Education, and my map represents that.

The costing scheme is as follows:
Column|# Techs|Cost
X35|6|700
X36|6|800
X37|7|900
X38|8|1000
X39|7|1100
X40|2|1200
X41|6|1300

The current Medieval Era has a total base cost of 39,425 beakers. This scheme has a total cost of 41,500 beakers, or about a 5% increase. This allows me to continue the +100 beakers/column scheme from the end of the Classical Era.

Let me know what you think of this. If you want me to put this on the SVN now, I can do that - I already have it working in my copy without XML errors.
 
@Vokarya

1. Overall I think that looks good.

2. Yeah Mountaineering should have had Invention. I am surprised we did not catch that earlier.

3. I am a bit surprised about moving Islam. Make sure Calligraphy is in the tech path of Islam since that's an important part of it.

4. I have no problem with it being put on the SVN. What do you think ls612?
 
@Vokarya

I was looking closer at your Islam chnage I think it should be ...

Islam
Required Techs: Feudalism AND Fundamentalism

Note that Resurrection is already covered in Fundamentalism.

Also it looks like Calligraphy is in the upgrade line at least.

Calligraphy -> Aesthetics -> Drama -> Music -> Theology -> Fundamentalism -> Islam
 
@Vokarya

I was looking closer at your Islam chnage I think it should be ...

Islam
Required Techs: Feudalism AND Fundamentalism

Note that Resurrection is already covered in Fundamentalism.

Also it looks like Calligraphy is in the upgrade line at least.

Calligraphy -> Aesthetics -> Drama -> Music -> Theology -> Fundamentalism -> Islam

OK. I think I just pulled out the Education requirement and replaced it with Fundamentalism + Feudalism without considering the redundancy issue.

The reason for moving Islam earlier on the Tech Tree is that I would like for Islam to have a presence over more of the Medieval Era. If it requires Education, that pushes Islam all the way to the end of the Medieval, and historically Islam spreads quite far before that.

I'll put this on the SVN tonight and then start organizing my Renaissance Era notes.
 
@Vokarya

I was looking up Yoruba and it apparently has features like Reincarnation, Divine Destiny and Polytheist traits. I think it should be moved down the tree then. I am thinking ...

Yoruba
Era: Ancient
Location: X26 Y19
Req Techs: Folk Music AND Folk Dance AND Reincarnation AND Polytheism

Also it apparently predates the Egyptians Dynasties! :eek: It also has some ties to Voodoo so I am thinking Voodoo should be linked as well ...

Voodoo
Req Tech: Resurrection AND Fundamentalism AND Yoruba
 
The whole Yoruba thing is still being discovered. The Nok made life sized terracotta statuery in a style that is now called Yoruba but there was no evidence that they were Yoruba but may have been pre-Yoruba. they were contempary with late bronze age Egypt and are the only peoples know who skipped the copper and bronze ages going from stone to iron.
 
@Vokarya

I was looking up Yoruba and it apparently has features like Reincarnation, Divine Destiny and Polytheist traits. I think it should be moved down the tree then. I am thinking ...

Yoruba
Era: Ancient
Location: X26 Y19
Req Techs: Folk Music AND Folk Dance AND Reincarnation AND Polytheism

Also it apparently predates the Egyptians Dynasties! :eek: It also has some ties to Voodoo so I am thinking Voodoo should be linked as well ...

Voodoo
Req Tech: Resurrection AND Fundamentalism AND Yoruba

I'll change both of these when I do the Renaissance Era, which should be up within the next day or two.
 
I was doing some planning for re-mapping and re-costing the Modern Era, and I think this era could use a little more room. Would there be a problem if I move the Transhuman and Galactic Eras three columns to the right and use the extra space to spread out the Modern Era a little more? I won't do this until I'm ready to re-map the entire Modern Era.
 
I was doing some planning for re-mapping and re-costing the Modern Era, and I think this era could use a little more room. Would there be a problem if I move the Transhuman and Galactic Eras three columns to the right and use the extra space to spread out the Modern Era a little more? I won't do this until I'm ready to re-map the entire Modern Era.

If you do that make sure, you go back and check all of them, it isn't as easy as it looks. But of course i moved each and every tech(s), so you'll have an easier time. . I hope. . .
 
If you do that make sure, you go back and check all of them, it isn't as easy as it looks. But of course i moved each and every tech(s), so you'll have an easier time. . I hope. . .

I do the re-mapping with pencil and paper so I can see how it's supposed to look once I boot up the game and look at the tree. I managed to do my Renaissance re-map on my own copy and only missed one Y-coordinate the first time.
 
Here is my proposed re-map of the Renaissance Era. This time, I'm not changing any prerequisites.

View attachment 334165

The two really important things for me are using some of the more underused columns (X44 and X50 were three techs each, and X53 was completely empty) and imposing a unified cost scheme on this era. Base costs in the Renaissance Era are anywhere from 1075 to 4690. The 4680 looks like a holdover from BTS when Biology was an Industrial Era tech.

The new scheme is:
Column|Cost
X42|1400
X43|1600
X44|1800
X45|2000
X46|2200
X47|2400
X48|2600
X49|2800
X50|3000
X51|3200
X52|3400
X53|3600

The +100 beaker/column scheme from the late Classical and Medieval eras gets increased to +200 beakers/column. This new scheme reduces the total base beaker cost from 150,488 beakers to 148,800 beakers, reducing it by 1.1%. I don't think that is a significant reduction.

Let me know what you think of this. Again, the XML code is ready to go on the SVN, but I want to see if there is anything I missed.
 
Here is my proposed re-map of the Renaissance Era. This time, I'm not changing any prerequisites.


Let me know what you think of this. Again, the XML code is ready to go on the SVN, but I want to see if there is anything I missed.

Nationalism has a "double" line breaker? Any reason for that?
 
@Vokarya

I was looking up Yoruba and it apparently has features like Reincarnation, Divine Destiny and Polytheist traits. I think it should be moved down the tree then. I am thinking ...

Yoruba
Era: Ancient
Location: X26 Y19
Req Techs: Folk Music AND Folk Dance AND Reincarnation AND Polytheism

Also it apparently predates the Egyptians Dynasties! :eek: It also has some ties to Voodoo so I am thinking Voodoo should be linked as well ...

Voodoo
Req Tech: Resurrection AND Fundamentalism AND Yoruba

OK, I will also update Yoruba to cost 115 so it matches the rest of column X26. The Resurrection prerequisite on Voodoo is also redundant now that it's required for Fundamentalism so I will make Voodoo just Fundamentalism + Yoruba.
 
@Vokarya:

Go ahead on those Renaissance changes. I'd prefer though o wait on the Industrial and Modern eras though, I think they are pretty good for now. Great work on this complex and grueling issue though! :goodjob:
 
Nationalism has a "double" line breaker? Any reason for that?

Probably because it has a triple OR prerequisite. Right now, our Nationalism prerequisite is Leadership AND (Economics OR Flintlock OR Social Contract). I think that could do it, especially since I have Economics and Social Contract in the same column as Nationalism.

When I do my level system to decide which techs fall in which columns, I use the HIGHEST possible AND prerequisite and the LOWEST possible OR prerequisite. So for Nationalism, the prerequisites are:

AND Prerequisites
Leadership: Level-3 (Political Philosophy - Divine Right - Leadership)

OR Prerequisites
Economics: Level-5 (Astronomy - Astrolabe - Navigation - Mercantilism - Economics)
Flintlock: Level-4 (Gunpowder - Metallurgy - Chemistry - Flintlock)
Social Contract: Level-5 (Political Philosophy - Divine Right - Critical Thought - Humanism - Social Contract)

The lowest possible level for Nationalism is Level-5, as you could research it if you have all Level-4 and lower technologies. I also try to keep technologies that are in the same level in the same or similar columns, so you don't get widely varying costs for techs that are of similar difficulty to reach. That's how Economics, Nationalism, and Social Contract all wound up in the same column.
 
Probably because it has a triple OR prerequisite. Right now, our Nationalism prerequisite is Leadership AND (Economics OR Flintlock OR Social Contract). I think that could do it, especially since I have Economics and Social Contract in the same column as Nationalism.

When I do my level system to decide which techs fall in which columns, I use the HIGHEST possible AND prerequisite and the LOWEST possible OR prerequisite. So for Nationalism, the prerequisites are:

AND Prerequisites
Leadership: Level-3 (Political Philosophy - Divine Right - Leadership)

OR Prerequisites
Economics: Level-5 (Astronomy - Astrolabe - Navigation - Mercantilism - Economics)
Flintlock: Level-4 (Gunpowder - Metallurgy - Chemistry - Flintlock)
Social Contract: Level-5 (Political Philosophy - Divine Right - Critical Thought - Humanism - Social Contract)

The lowest possible level for Nationalism is Level-5, as you could research it if you have all Level-4 and lower technologies. I also try to keep technologies that are in the same level in the same or similar columns, so you don't get widely varying costs for techs that are of similar difficulty to reach. That's how Economics, Nationalism, and Social Contract all wound up in the same column.

Yeppers that will do it, just be careful, like i said and make sure you can go to the next tech GRID(s) with a 2 second delay.
 
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