Discussion in 'Rise of Mankind: A New Dawn' started by Vokarya, Feb 24, 2013.
Arguendo, Public Education started in 1561 in Scotland
Public Schooling is a VERY hard tech to pin down. There were a lot of places where it could fit, and I'm choosing to tie it to the Jules Ferry laws in France that created free, universal, secular public education, so that's why it is in the middle of the Industrial Era (circa late 1880's). There's so much variation in when it was adopted in different places.
In the next revision, I am going to make the changes to The Wheel and Sacrifice. I'll leave Settlers alone for now. This is what you will see.
Sacrifice will require Animal Husbandry or Slavery in addition to Mysticism. This should have the effect of slowing down Judaism a little, as you will have to research one extra tech (you can get Slavery with just Ritualism). I also hope that this gives civilizations that start with Hunting + Ritualism or Hunting + Stone Tools a good shot at getting Judaism if they beeline. Before, you can get Monotheism by going Stone Tools - Mining - Masonry (first Monotheism prereq) - Ritualism - Mysticism - Ceremonial Burial (also req Stone Tools) - Priesthood (second Mono prereq) - Sacrifice (third Mono prereq), so civilizations that started with Stone Tools and Ritualism had the inside track. Now, you will have to research at least Slavery, and if the cost break for knowing both Ritualism and Hunting when researching Slavery (2 OR prereqs) cancels out the extra cost of having to research Stone Tools, it should balance out.
The Wheel will require Stone Tools and be moved up a column. This should also slow down the Ancient Era just a bit, as you will need to do some research before hooking up any resources in your area. You need The Wheel to build Paths. Also, the civilizations that start with The Wheel will be changed, as all starter techs do not have any prerequisites. This will affect the following civilizations:
Civilization New Tech Other Tech
Arabia Hunting Ritualism
Babylon Stone Tools Agriculture
Byzantine Agriculture Ritualism
Egypt Ritualism Agriculture
Hittite Hunting Stone Tools
Japan Storytelling Fishing
Mali Ritualism Stone Tools
Mongolia Weaving Hunting
Ottoman Weaving Agriculture
We will see how that shakes out.
I really like the idea of slowing down the ancient era, but I would love it more to expand it (altough not as much as C2C does).
What I think of is some extra options for the workers. Hunting and gathering, but not by building an improvement, rather by keeping them in a tile fore some bonuses. And these options would obsolate with some some tech, or become just useles/unavaible when there is an improvement on the tile. Is that possible at all?
That's not within my coding skills. That would take a separate worker action to create, and I can kind of visualize how to do it, but I don't think we want to do that just yet.
I'm just about set to upload all of my recent changes, and I noticed as I was adjusting the tech tree for The Wheel changes, I should be pushing up (in column and cost) the entire line of Pottery - Metal Casting - Bronze Working - Warfare. I'm not going to do change any of these other affected techs, which does break my own personal system. Mostly I think it's because the Writing and religion lines are a little too privileged at the moment, and I would like to keep the early metal line worthwhile. Also, the tech tree would look absolutely horrible with Warfare in its own columns (since Warfare would be the only Ancient-6 tech).
While I finished revising the Tech Tree a long time ago, I still come back to it occasionally. One thing that I did not do when revising was to eliminate any techs. I have come to the conclusion that there are certain technologies that are just too narrow to support more than one "trick" (building, unit, etc.) and would be best off removed from the mod. The first tech that I wound like to post my ideas about is Mounted Archery.
First, the Classical Era has three separate technologies focused on just horse combat: Horse Breeding, Mounted Archery, and Stirrup. This seems like a lot to me, especially since the Classical Era is only 32 techs long. I like Stirrup, and I'm okay with Horse Breeding, but three techs seems to be overkill.
Second, there isn't enough content to support three horse techs. We have three Classical-Era mounted units: Mounted Infantry, Horse Archer, and Light Cavalry, plus one building: Knight's Stable. This is enough to support two technologies, but not three.
Finally, Mounted Archery has a really tenuous tie back into the rest of the Tech Tree. The only legitimate tech that I could tie it into is Cavalry Tactics, which is all the way in the Renaissance Era. A really good technology should lead into more than one tech, and should lead to a technology in the same era or the next era, or it becomes skippable for too long, which I don't like. When the exit point is two eras down, that looks to me like a red flag.
What I would do if Mounted Archery was eliminated as a tech is to move the Horse Archer (and UU's) back to Horse Breeding and lower their strength by 1. This would give a distinction between the Horse Archer (the light mounted unit of the Classical Era) and the Light Cavalry (ironically, the heavy mounted unit of the Classical Era).
Let me know what you think about this.
Souds reasonable to me.
I don't think I ever researched Mounted Archery "in time", i.e. in the Classical or early Medieval eras anyway, there was always something more important.
I suppose you mean tenuous?
You're right. Wrong word. Sorry.
Space Tourism is another technology that I don't feel deserves a space on the tech tree. The only thing it allows is the Orbital Hotel, and that doesn't even seem to belong to the Modern Era - it feels more like a Transhuman Era building.
Like Mounted Archery, Space Tourism also has a tenuous tie to the rest of the Tech Tree. Its only exit point is Space Colonies, which comes late in the Transhuman Era, after Orbital Flight. At that point, Space Tourism is an afterthought.
I would like to remove Space Tourism and move the Orbital Hotel to Orbital Flight.
What do you think?
I'd like to do a little bit of prerequisite shuffling of civics in the next SVN build. There are three changes I would like to do.
Bourgeois: Moves from Aristocracy to Banking. I've always thought that Bourgeois shows up way too early, and that merchant classes don't really emerge until the later Middle Ages.
Senate: Moves from Mathematics to Aristocracy. This is to keep Aristocracy from being a one-trick-pony tech, and Mathematics has a lot of stuff as it is, so this cuts it down a little.
Subsidized: Moves from Representative Democracy to Public Health. I mentioned this before, but this takes one-trick status away from Public Health, which currently only has the Water Treatment Plant.
I'm fine with both changes.
Three changes, but I actually meant Patrician, not Senate. Senate stays at Code of Laws. Too many ideas in my head at once.
I have an problem, with the set out of the Swordsman.
Athletics gives 1 to the light swordsman, Cost of 4735 66% of Ironworking.
Ironworking, gives PRODUCTION of light swords, cost 7101
Realistically, you'll most likely get Athletics BEFORE ironworking, just on cost/time balance.
I would suggest to move the 1 to a tech AFTER iron working, such as Siege warfare, which would seem a much more logical fit, even with all it already has.
Now you need to move Smithing, to require Machinery, in Parrallel with Fuedalism, but above on tree map.
This would help to space out the 3 Swords levels, remove the ability to gain 1 Before the unit is enabled, and give some definition to the tech tree.
I also hav a suggestion: Chopping and Quary
It is strange (atleast for me) that Woodworking allows Carpenter, but chopping is avaiable only a lot latter. Also Stoneworking allows Stoworkers hut but Quarry is avaiable only a lot latter.
I think Stonewoker's hut should be moved to Masonry, Chop Forest/Jungle to Woodworking. Bronze working and Iron working should both get +25% on clearing forest/jungle and remove the +50% from Mathetamics (which I never really undersood).
I think you are right about the positioning of the strength bonus, but I think the best solution is to just raise the base strength of Light Swordsman to 7 and scratch the bonus at Athletics completely. I like Smithing where it is at the tail end of the Classical Era.
Here's a new tech that I was thinking would be a good addition to the Renaissance Era: Absolutism. This technology represents the "Enlightened despot" of late-Renaissance Europe.
View attachment 371632
View attachment 371633
This is what you get:
Era: Renaissance (Ren-5)
Prerequisites: Free Artistry AND Social Contract
Leads to: Constitution
Allows: Taj Mahal, Versailles
Absolutism gets to take both Versailles from Divine Right and Taj Mahal from Nationalism. Divine Right keeps Spiral Minaret, Temple of Heaven, and +1 espionage from Town Watch for 2.5 tricks, and Nationalism keeps Hermitage, Nationalist civic, and a new Flagpole building for 3 tricks, so I'm not reducing any of these techs to one-trick status.
I'd also eventually like to hang an Autocracy Power civic here, as sort of a counterpart to Presidency. I'm not quite sure what the differences would be yet, but I would just like to add it for the future.
Adding Absolutism does four things that I think make this a good addition:
Provide an extra tech in the Renaissance Era, which I think is a good thing.
Open up some space at Divine Right and Nationalism. I want to introduce some new Wonders and both of these are very easy "go-to" techs. Absolutism helps keep the total number of Wonders at any one tech down.
Solve the slight anachronism regarding when Versailles comes available to build. The early Renaissance (for Divine Right) is a bit too early, and this pushes it to at least the middle of the era.
Provide a better exit point for Free Artistry. Free Artistry is not required for any tech until Realism in the mid-Industrial Era.
Looks very nice, I like it!
I thought of something a while ago. Knights seem to take forever to come onto the battlefield, and especially Chivalry is pushed almost to the end of the Medieval Era.
I think it would be a good idea to remove the Invention requirement from the Armored Cavalry tech. Invention is a major choke-point tech, and while I don't mind the occasional choke-point, I don't think we need two of them (Invention and Education) so close together. What this would do:
Armored Cavalry still requires Armor Crafting + Elephant Riding + Stirrup. It moves back one column and drops in cost (down to 1000). It would now be Medieval-3 instead of Medieval-4.
Chivalry also moves back one column because it still requires Armored Cavalry, but it isn't pushed up by the Invention necessity. It becomes Medieval-4 and drops in cost down to 1100.
What do you think?
I think it's a good idea. I've always thought that those units were available too late.
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