Tech Tree Revisions

[JosEPh_II]

I think that your proposal sounds very good.
As for Civics, my original plan was to start developing them starting from May/June. But changing civics is a very delicate matter because it will throw everything off balance, so my idea was to develop a new civics system but making it separate from the main game for the moment and test it separately. Then, once we're sure everything works, we can integrate the new system into the main game.
IIRC Afforess liked the current civic system and found no particular problem with it. Since he's on the forum these days, I wonder what he's to say about it.

I'll probably not participate with this as I got blasted for my previous "starting the ball rolling" attempt. While Afforess may like his Civic set I don't think all the players agree on that. I don't.

JosEPh

 

[Rezca]

As I've said before, I really want all of the techs on the Tech Tree to be worth researching in and of themselves, not just as waypoints to another tech. I'm looking deeply into the techs that have very little attached and if I can't even come up with a possibility for what else to attach to a given tech, that's a good cue to consider removing the tech in question. One tech where I think this is definitely in play is 3D Modeling.

3D Modeling currently offers the following:

• One building: the Design Studio
• Outgoing links to three techs: Climate Models, Nanotechnology, Virtual Reality

This is not very much. I think what we should do is merge this tech with Microprocessor. Microprocessor becomes the prerequisite for the Design Studio and all three techs. It also pulls MP out of OTP status by giving it a second building to go alongside the Solar Plant. Can anyone think of something else that might save this tech?

I think 3D Modeling has potential, but I'm having a bit of trouble thinking of anything.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_modeling#Uses Might be of help though for finding potential ideas?

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I also like 3D Modeling, I'd prefer if we come up with something else for both MP and 3DM. Suggestions anyone?

 

[BlindKitty]

Just a (very) quick thought: 3D Modelling and Microprocessor are both very good candidates for Great Scientific Works, as I see them. Maybe keeping them around until they will be introduced is a good idea?

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Just a (very) quick thought: 3D Modelling and Microprocessor are both very good candidates for Great Scientific Works, as I see them. Maybe keeping them around until they will be introduced is a good idea?

This could be a kind of temporary solution. It's ok with me, if Vokarya agrees.

In the meantime I'm looking at Realism Invictus code and it looks like most changes about Great Works were xml changes. But it shouldn't be a problem adding some other dll changes as well when needed.

 

[<Nexus>]

I can't take State Church away from Scriptures without reducing it to one-trick status, which I really don't want to do. You would still have Prophets and Divine Cult as your options throughout the late Ancient and entire Classical eras (unless you get Shwedagon Paya), and I think that's fair.

I see, but I don't feel DC fitting to Scriptures but to Ceremonial Burial very much.
How about leaving DC where it is and merge Monotheism into Sciruptures. I never liked "Monotheism" as a tech name anyway. It's too specific. What use of it for a civ that founds a politeistic religion only?
The same goes for Polytheism.

 

[Vokarya]

Just a (very) quick thought: 3D Modelling and Microprocessor are both very good candidates for Great Scientific Works, as I see them. Maybe keeping them around until they will be introduced is a good idea?

I really doubt that 3D Modeling is going to get anything out of the Great Works project, but I guess I can leave it for the moment, if there's this much opposition to the idea.

 

[Vokarya]

I see, but I don't feel DC fitting to Scriptures but to Ceremonial Burial very much.
How about leaving DC where it is and merge Monotheism into Sciruptures. I never liked "Monotheism" as a tech name anyway. It's too specific. What use of it for a civ that founds a politeistic religion only?
The same goes for Polytheism.

I'm not getting rid of any tech that comes from general BTS. Those I consider iconic enough to not mess with. Also, a tech represents knowledge of something, not necessarily whether you adopt it (see Slavery and Fascism).

 

[<Nexus>]

I'm not getting rid of any tech that comes from general BTS. Those I consider iconic enough to not mess with. Also, a tech represents knowledge of something, not necessarily whether you adopt it (see Slavery and Fascism).

Okay.
Than get rid of Scriptures or find some more stuff for it
Maybe it is time for some brainstorming?



EDIT:

For a long time I am thinking about including Religious Holy Books (Bible, Talmud, Quran, etc) to the game. What it could do:

• World project
• Increse spread rate of the specific religion for all civs - if possible, OR
• Boost up the missionary unit of the religion for all civs - like encresing speed from 1 to 2

Hmm... Is it possible to make a little promotion tree for missionary, worker and settler units? Of course they would gain free promotions and Xp only at being built from buildings, wonders, civics and maybe traits. I think ok of

• +1speed
• double movement on ... terrain
• no movement penalty for crossing over rivers/sea
• invisibility against barbarians (if possible)

Does it sound good for anyone else? Or is it cousing the same problems as giving strength to them?

 

[Vokarya]

Holy Books are something I want to do as part of the Great Works project. I thought of that about 30 minutes after I posted the idea for Great Scientific Works. (5 minutes after that, I thought about Wealth of Nations. 2 minutes after that, I thought of On War. So there's potential for all the GP to get in the act.) Divine Cult is still going to go to Scriptures.

I really don't like the idea of promotions for non-combatant units. I think it would be more complication than value, especially since most of those units are use-once and then disappear.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Holy Books are something I want to do as part of the Great Works project. I thought of that about 30 minutes after I posted the idea for Great Scientific Works. (5 minutes after that, I thought about Wealth of Nations. 2 minutes after that, I thought of On War. So there's potential for all the GP to get in the act.) Divine Cult is still going to go to Scriptures.

I really don't like the idea of promotions for non-combatant units. I think it would be more complication than value, especially since most of those units are use-once and then disappear.

I also don't like promotions for non-combatant units. As for books, I like your idea. Pity that Sun Tzu is already in game (I frankly don't like the idea of changing it to a Great Work), but On War that's great! By the way I've just finished reading Sun Tzu's Art of War, I actually didn't liked it very much, but if you're interested there's a book I'm currently reading named On Thermonuclear War, and that's really interesting and giving me also some ideas on things to add to improve AI usage of nukes.

 

[JosEPh_II]

<snip>

I really don't like the idea of promotions for non-combatant units. I think it would be more complication than value, especially since most of those units are use-once and then disappear.

I agree, don't take AND down the T-Brd promoting everything path.

JosEPh

 

[Vokarya]

I agree, don't take AND down the T-Brd promoting everything path.

JosEPh

If I'm going to introduce something, I'm going to have a pretty good reason for it. I'm not fond of bloat either. Ideally, what I introduce is going to tie into existing mechanics in some way. I think actually this makes Wonders less complicated than other things, because a Wonder only has to be built once. With a new unit, you have to expect it on the battlefield a lot, and with a new building, you have to expect it in every city, so you have to be careful with those.

 

[Vokarya]

I also don't like promotions for non-combatant units. As for books, I like your idea. Pity that Sun Tzu is already in game (I frankly don't like the idea of changing it to a Great Work), but On War that's great! By the way I've just finished reading Sun Tzu's Art of War, I actually didn't liked it very much, but if you're interested there's a book I'm currently reading named On Thermonuclear War, and that's really interesting and giving me also some ideas on things to add to improve AI usage of nukes.

It's not going to be easy to draw the line between Wonders and Works. Art of War is a good example, and so is Theory of Evolution vs. Origin of Species. I know I want to keep Gutenberg Bible as a Wonder because the Wonder-nature is not in the creative work, but the production. I have one more that's probably going to have to stay a Wonder as well, but it's part of a larger project, so we'll figure that out once I decide it's time to introduce it.

 

[<Nexus>]

I understand all your reasons about promoting civilian units and never said it is a good idea, just an idea All I think is that it would be good to have some ways improving missionaries (and other civilian units) and I do not know any other mechanism.

Than an other idea for Scriptures:
Make it a prerequisite for missionaries. It would make sense: Without it religions spreads only by word of mouth. To send out missionaries in an organized way you need some manuscripts for both training and preaching.

Sorry, but I just can not get used to the idea of putting DC to Scriptures I feel it a very artificial sollution to keep Scriptures not becoming an other "Abbys colonization".

(EDIT: I hope you don't me too nagging If so, sorry)


About great works: Will Holy Books benefit from paper resource somehow?

 

[Kryanni]

Does anyone ever really use Divine Cult though? There's so many negatives attached to it in AND that I hardly ever use it, and its unique building goes obsolete so quickly too.

Pretty sure it's also bad stability-wise with regards to Revolutions.

 

[Vokarya]

Than an other idea for Scriptures:
Make it a prerequisite for missionaries. It would make sense: Without it religions spreads only by word of mouth. To send out missionaries in an organized way you need some manuscripts for both training and preaching.

That wouldn't mean anything. Scriptures is required for Meditation. Meditation is required to build Monasteries. Monasteries are the only way to train Missionaries until State Church, which is being moved to Papacy (unless you can pull off Shwedagon Paya). So you have to have Scriptures long before you can train Missionaries.

 

[<Nexus>]

That wouldn't mean anything. Scriptures is required for Meditation. Meditation is required to build Monasteries. Monasteries are the only way to train Missionaries until State Church, which is being moved to Papacy (unless you can pull off Shwedagon Paya). So you have to have Scriptures long before you can train Missionaries.

Oh, man! You are damn right. AGAIN!

Than: Monastry to Scriptres and missionaries to Meditation?
I don't give up so easily

But seriously: There are still so many other techs also with only on trick.

 

[Vokarya]

I'm still working on the one-trick techs. We have 33 now, and the next build will solve Cavalry Tactics (with Dragoon) and Automated Traffic (with Hovercar). I'm pretty sure I know what I want to do for Chemistry and Regenerative Medicine next (I'm planning on shifting gears to buildings/Wonders for a while, as I've had my fill of units).

 

[Vokarya]

I'm still looking for a few techs that might be able to be removed in the interest of making the Tech Tree smoother and more intuitive. I would like to remove Legalized Gambling as a technology. It doesn't feel to me like a tech -- it feels more like either a low-grade Civic choice or some type of National Wonder. Its placement is difficult, as it is a Modern Era tech but some places (like Monte Carlo and Las Vegas itself) had gambling in the Industrial Era.

Also, like Mounted Archery and Space Tourism, I find Legalized Gambling to have a tenuous tie back into the rest of the tree. Right now, it links to Derivatives and Megacorporations (Derivatives is an Advanced Economy tech, so it disappears if AE is turned off), but the tie is not very strong.

As far as content goes, Legalized Gambling does meet my two-trick minimum with Casino and Las Vegas Strip, but I don't see it having any more potential than that, which I don't really like. I'm of the opinion that techs need to be broad in their interpretation, and single inventions or narrow concepts don't usually make for good techs unless the after-effects are so strong that it is a definite technological turning point (like Gunpowder, Printing Press, or Radio).

So this is what I'd like to do:

• Move Casino to Psychology (about the right time period for casinos to start appearing)
• Move Las Vegas Strip to Tourism (Las Vegas has gambling in the Industrial Era, but the Strip doesn't become significant until the 1960's, with the Welcome to Las Vegas sign in 1959 and the first mega-casino in 1969, so Tourism is perfect).
• Then delete the Legalized Gambling tech.

Let me know if this sounds ok.