if the slower gamespeeds are more unbalanced, how about a epic-large-monarch game?Probably should have responded to this post instead of your other one in the other thread, but AND's not balanced for the slower speeds yet, and definitely not for Eternity speed. C2C's focusing on the painfully slow gamespeeds and even removed the two faster ones, while AND's got Quick and Blitz nailed down to near-perfection.
Anything slower than Normal is going to be more or less broken in multiple ways. The slower the speed, the more unbalanced it gets. Transhuman may work just fine in Blitz, but end up being - as you said - a total joke in Snail or Eternity. What works for one speed likely won't work for another.
Speaking of which, I'm still waiting for the next balancing test-games
Was going to be Quick-Large-Noble, but I'm curious if we can skip to Normal-Large-Noble?
Tech Tree Revisions
- Thread starter Vokarya
- Start date
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
Messy-lines don't bother me at all. "Invisible" thechs do, of course.
So I don't feel it so necessary to redesign the tech-tree.
My oppinion.
Afforess
The White Wizard
The lines aren't simply messy. They are nearly unreadable. Unless you have the tech tree memorized, its not very useful.
Its important RAND be presentable to outsiders. If we can't make simple things like the tech tree look right, why should a new player think the rest of the mod is any better?
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Vokarya has been working on the tech tree. Perhaps you should talk with him about it. He redid C2C's tech tree before coming on here. And I thought his work was excellent and well thought out.
I also know that DH of C2C has has been complaining about recent changes to C2C's techtree and it's been brought up that it is one of the tags for either the AND prereq or the OR prereq that generates the "Lines" that connect the techs for a visual pathing. And if the order is not right in the xml files it poses a problem.
JosEPh
I also know that DH of C2C has has been complaining about recent changes to C2C's techtree and it's been brought up that it is one of the tags for either the AND prereq or the OR prereq that generates the "Lines" that connect the techs for a visual pathing. And if the order is not right in the xml files it poses a problem.
JosEPh
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Very close to what I play and I find it enjoyable and nothing stands out as being out of place for me, (well except for the Roads and Jungle Camp interactions).
JosEPh
Afforess
The White Wizard
I just started some playing (build 725), and I did not see any issues with Insurance. Maybe it's something weird going on with Advanced Economy?
As far as the layout goes, it's done the way it is to accurately represent how difficult it is to get to a particular tech. Each column or two (I used 2 columns when there were more than 8 or 9 techs) represents one "level" of buildup from the start of the era. Techs of different levels or eras don't share columns, and every tech in the same column has the same cost. The lines are then automatically generated by the OR prerequisites. AND prerequisites generate those little icons in the upper-right corner of each box. I'm pretty sure this is different from regular BTS. I'm not going to change the columns just for appearance's sake. We might be able to do some things with moving Y-coordinates so that lines don't cross. I've done a little bit of touching up already and it makes a difference; I'll see what I can do, but I suspect the real problem is the OR prerequisites that are in the tree, and those are going to generate lines just based on their existence.
The last option is to remove a line completely, by setting ALL of a tech's prerequisites to AND prereqs; this results in a tech that doesn't have any arrows going into it, but is still in the right place.
As far as the layout goes, it's done the way it is to accurately represent how difficult it is to get to a particular tech. Each column or two (I used 2 columns when there were more than 8 or 9 techs) represents one "level" of buildup from the start of the era. Techs of different levels or eras don't share columns, and every tech in the same column has the same cost. The lines are then automatically generated by the OR prerequisites. AND prerequisites generate those little icons in the upper-right corner of each box. I'm pretty sure this is different from regular BTS. I'm not going to change the columns just for appearance's sake. We might be able to do some things with moving Y-coordinates so that lines don't cross. I've done a little bit of touching up already and it makes a difference; I'll see what I can do, but I suspect the real problem is the OR prerequisites that are in the tree, and those are going to generate lines just based on their existence.
The last option is to remove a line completely, by setting ALL of a tech's prerequisites to AND prereqs; this results in a tech that doesn't have any arrows going into it, but is still in the right place.
Maybe as you hover it could highlight the lines going from and coming to the tech? This way no moves are necessary and you'll be able to see what you want (it's not that you want to see the whole tree at once, you want to study paths and small points of connection). I have no knowledge on this subject, but I thought this was a good idea if it's possible/not so hard to do
Afforess
The White Wizard
We could always rewrite the way arrow techs are chosen, possibly with a new XML field, that let's you explicitly set which techs to draw an arrow to. It would require you to set them all manually, but give you the flexibility in the display.
If you want to, you can. I don't have that kind of programming skill.
I did do some work on rearranging things, and I think it looks much better now than it did before. There are some tangles that I can't clear up (especially when multiple OR prereqs are involved) because of how tied together everything is. From a gameplay perspective, I want there to be multiple paths when possible. It's not always possible, but if it seems plausible, I'd like to include it.
As I said about Biology, I've been having second thoughts about the placement of the Explosives tech. Here, the problem isn't the content, it's the history. The first chemical explosive is gunpowder, which is naturally its own tech. The first explosive stronger than gunpowder is nitroglycerin, which isn't developed until 1847, and that is definitely Industrial Era, not Renaissance. So I've been thinking we should move Explosives to the Industrial Era.
If it was moved, Explosives would require Organic Chemistry and Military Science and Railroad and Mountaineering, and lead to Civil Engineering, Combustion, and Repeating Weapons. This weaves it fairly tightly into the tech tree. Flintlock would replace Explosives in the prerequisites for Rifling, and Steam Power would be fine without Explosives.
The other question is what to do about Explosives' content. It currently has a very nice mix of things available, and we would need to distribute some of them to other Renaissance techs while moving some content around for Explosives. Here's what I think would be the best fit:
To give Explosives something worth researching for, I would move to here the Arsenal and Early Destroyer from Artillery tech and the Mining Inc Corporation from Railroad. This would leave Railroad in one-trick-pony status, but I have something else in mind that we could put there.
Let me know what you think.
If it was moved, Explosives would require Organic Chemistry and Military Science and Railroad and Mountaineering, and lead to Civil Engineering, Combustion, and Repeating Weapons. This weaves it fairly tightly into the tech tree. Flintlock would replace Explosives in the prerequisites for Rifling, and Steam Power would be fine without Explosives.
The other question is what to do about Explosives' content. It currently has a very nice mix of things available, and we would need to distribute some of them to other Renaissance techs while moving some content around for Explosives. Here's what I think would be the best fit:
- Grenadier unit would move to Matchlock AND Absolutism. Absolutism is a great fit, as it keeps Grenadiers in the late Renaissance Era, while also keeping them out of the main pathway for auto-upgrading Musketmen to Riflemen. Matchlock is only necessary because it's possible to get all the way to Absolutism without even researching Gunpowder.
- Cannon unit would be nice at Physics. I think this is not a bad place, as it gives Physics something different. If this is too early, we could move it back to Nationalism.
- Shaft Mine improvement would be moved to Metallurgy. I actually think this is a better place, as it moves Shaft Mine closer to halfway between the original Mine and the Modern Mine. Modern Mine is available at Modern Seismology, early in the Modern Era, so I don't want the two to be too close.
- Quarry +1 production can stay at Explosives. It's a minor benefit.
- Chemical I promotion can also stay with Explosives.
To give Explosives something worth researching for, I would move to here the Arsenal and Early Destroyer from Artillery tech and the Mining Inc Corporation from Railroad. This would leave Railroad in one-trick-pony status, but I have something else in mind that we could put there.
Let me know what you think.
Those all seem good so far.
I will note that they had military cannons as early as the 1450s or so, but I assume that "Cannon" refers to the large, reliable variety that doesn't explode in your face.
I will note that they had military cannons as early as the 1450s or so, but I assume that "Cannon" refers to the large, reliable variety that doesn't explode in your face.
IPEX-731BA5DD06
Deity
Cannons at Nationalism, would fit in well, if you took the view that Napoleon, who was an Artillery officer, and was the 1st one to use them in battle to great effect.
Well, more so the Nationalist aspect of the warfare. He was the 1st to Nationalise the army and not make it a play thing of the royality. He started the nationalist movements that really cummulated in WW1.
On another subject, what about increasing the Armoury and the Cannon factory to 30%, double the production to match its double cost.
Another thing, Parade grounds, they are unbuildable once you gain Rifling, and obsolete walls and/or High walls, which are a pre-requisite for Parade Grounds.
Solution, remove the need for walls for parade grounds, and leave it with the tech only, Chivalry and standing army.
Well, more so the Nationalist aspect of the warfare. He was the 1st to Nationalise the army and not make it a play thing of the royality. He started the nationalist movements that really cummulated in WW1.
On another subject, what about increasing the Armoury and the Cannon factory to 30%, double the production to match its double cost.
Another thing, Parade grounds, they are unbuildable once you gain Rifling, and obsolete walls and/or High walls, which are a pre-requisite for Parade Grounds.
Solution, remove the need for walls for parade grounds, and leave it with the tech only, Chivalry and standing army.
Those all seem good so far.
I will note that they had military cannons as early as the 1450s or so, but I assume that "Cannon" refers to the large, reliable variety that doesn't explode in your face.
Bombards are the early cannons (and one of the top units I feel should be included in just about any mod).
Afforess
The White Wizard
Obviously I am volunteering myself.
I'll add a tag, iTechArrowOverrides, which should let you override the normal arrows, if you want. If it is not used for a tech, the default logic will apply.
Obviously I am volunteering myself.
I'll add a tag, iTechArrowOverrides, which should let you override the normal arrows, if you want. If it is not used for a tech, the default logic will apply.
Please wait until I do a new upload. I've been able to straighten out quite a bit just with changing locations, and I think there a few more places where I can straighten out even more. The tag might not even be necessary.
I think I've gone as far as I can with rearranging the tree. It's a lot clearer now, but there are still some places where it would probably be better for lines to be suppressed. The real knot has turned out to be the transition from the Modern Era to the Transhuman; there isn't a bottleneck the way there are between other eras (for example, everything in the Renaissance Era has to go through Education; only two Industrial Era techs do not require Steam Power; and the transition from the Industrial Era to the Modern goes through the two major techs of Electronics and Modern Physics with Globalization as a sidelight), and the prerequisites for the early Transhuman techs are spread out among different levels of Modern Era techs, so lines have to run across several columns. It's really messy early in the Transhuman Era, so cancelling a few lines is probably the best I can think of. Cutting Neural Networks helped a bit, but it's not the end-all solution.
Afforess
The White Wizard
So would the tech overrides XML feature be useful? I can add it if you think it would help clear up the last of the tech tree (and please do commit your changes!)
I think it would be useful. Do you think you could put it in and let me decide where to use it? I have a bunch more things I want to create before I commit anything.
I've said on numerous occasions that a technology that we can't back up with content should not be a technology at all. A good tech will have at least two items (buildings, units, wonders, civics, etc.) come available when discovered, or I'll be contemplating taking the ax to it (as I did with Mounted Archery and Neural Networks).
On the other hand, if there is an area of science or art that we can provide sufficient content for, either by creating or taking from other techs without knocking them below the two-trick threshold, then I think it's worth taking a look at incorporating. Here are two examples.
Archeology
View attachment 377305
Archeology as a science arises right at the end of the Renaissance. I chose to tie it to Nationalism to keep it close to the right place; Chemistry might be another option.
Era: Renaissance
Prerequisites: Nationalism AND Mountaineering
Leads to: Biology, Romanticism
Allows:
Romanticism
View attachment 377306
Romanticism as a movement is a direct response to the Industrial Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars. When I discovered that Realism has only one prerequisite (Marxism), and that Neuschwanstein is not a Realist piece of artwork at all, I thought Romanticism might be worth looking at. Somewhere down the line, when we start looking at Great Works, the Romantic period is going to be represented, and I think this is a good way to start. I also wanted to make Free Artistry a bit more useful.
Era: Industrial
Prerequisites: Archeology AND Free Artistry AND Grand War AND Steam Power
Leads to: Realism
Allows:
On the other hand, if there is an area of science or art that we can provide sufficient content for, either by creating or taking from other techs without knocking them below the two-trick threshold, then I think it's worth taking a look at incorporating. Here are two examples.
Archeology
View attachment 377305
Archeology as a science arises right at the end of the Renaissance. I chose to tie it to Nationalism to keep it close to the right place; Chemistry might be another option.
Era: Renaissance
Prerequisites: Nationalism AND Mountaineering
Leads to: Biology, Romanticism
Allows:
- Archeological Dig improvement (taken from Scientific Method)
- Rosetta Stone wonder (taken from Nationalism)
- +10% Science from Museum (Museum reduced to no science on its own)
Romanticism
View attachment 377306
Romanticism as a movement is a direct response to the Industrial Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars. When I discovered that Realism has only one prerequisite (Marxism), and that Neuschwanstein is not a Realist piece of artwork at all, I thought Romanticism might be worth looking at. Somewhere down the line, when we start looking at Great Works, the Romantic period is going to be represented, and I think this is a good way to start. I also wanted to make Free Artistry a bit more useful.
Era: Industrial
Prerequisites: Archeology AND Free Artistry AND Grand War AND Steam Power
Leads to: Realism
Allows:
- Free Great Artist for first discoverer (taken from Photography)
- Neuschwanstein wonder (taken from Realism)
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