Tech Tree Revisions
- Thread starter Vokarya
- Start date
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
Yes if using Realistic Timescale. This option is meant to keep you not too far ahead or behind of the real timescale. It's meant to prevent steamrolling other civs. If you're getting too far ahead, you are slowed down, if you fall behind, you're sped up.
This proved to be way more engrossing than I originally thought. I actually have a working blueprint for a 40-tech Industrial Era. I managed to nominate 15 techs for deletion. I need to work on icons for a while, but I can try to get a mockup soon. I haven't figured out what to do with all the content from the cut techs. The Corporations especially may get used to fill out the Modern Era.
Here is something I noticed in passing. All technologies have an <Advisor>. This is the recommendations on your pop-up window when choosing a new tech. There are six advisors to pick from: CULTURE, ECONOMY, GROWTH, MILITARY, RELIGION, and SCIENCE. For example, a tech that focuses on culture buildings would be ADVISOR_CULTURE.
I noticed a couple of techs with unlikely advisors. I don't think Labor Union counts as a Military tech. So I went through the tech file, looked at all the advisors, and identified a bunch of changes to be made. This should give you a more accurate picture of what tech to research.
Changes to be made:
I noticed a couple of techs with unlikely advisors. I don't think Labor Union counts as a Military tech. So I went through the tech file, looked at all the advisors, and identified a bunch of changes to be made. This should give you a more accurate picture of what tech to research.
Changes to be made:
- Glass Blowing: MILITARY to ECONOMY
- Machinery: MILITARY to ECONOMY
- Crop Rotation: ECONOMY to GROWTH
- Clockworks: MILITARY to ECONOMY
- Anatomy: SCIENCE to GROWTH
- Chemistry: MILITARY to SCIENCE
- Replaceable Parts: MILITARY to ECONOMY
- Assembly Line: MILITARY to ECONOMY
- Marxism: MILITARY to GROWTH
- Refining: MILITARY to ECONOMY
- Labor Union: MILITARY to GROWTH
- Public Schooling: GROWTH to SCIENCE
- Antibiotics: SCIENCE to GROWTH
- Biological Warfare: SCIENCE to MILITARY
- Nuclear Power: SCIENCE to ECONOMY
- Powered Exoskeleton: SCIENCE to MILITARY
- Ecological Engineering: SCIENCE to GROWTH
- Environmental Economics: SCIENCE to GROWTH
- Homo Superior: SCIENCE to GROWTH
- Space Colonies: SCIENCE to ECONOMY
- Planetary Economics: SCIENCE to ECONOMY
I got around to doing what I have been interested in trying to do for several weeks. This is a proposal for cutting the Industrial Era down from its current 55 technologies to 40.
The reason for cutting out so many techs is that I think we have both too many techs in the Industrial Era, and too many techs total. The Industrial Era is 55 techs long. The Renaissance Era is only 35. If we want to have the eras be the same length of turns, that means Industrial Era techs have to be researched more quickly. This results in Industrial Eras being faster to research than Renaissance. I don't think this is good.
Also, we have increased the total number of techs by a larger factor than the increase in game speed. Normal speed in AND is 1200 turns, vs. 500 for BTS. This is a 240% factor. There are 91 techs in BTS (excluding Future Tech) and 280 techs in AND (again, excluding Future Tech). This is a 307% factor. So this forces us to actually have to have techs be researched faster than BTS. I don't want to add more turns because I think that increases the ending fatigue and rewards warmongering (wars take less % of the total game) more than it probably should. Removing techs will allow us to slow down research speed and make individual techs feel like more of an achievement.
I do plan to do a little bit of cutting to the Modern and Transhuman Eras. I think we can easily get the Modern Era down to 40 and the Transhuman to possibly 45.
For those who want to see the whole era, I uploaded a PNG to ImageShack so I can post it here. It's a big image, so it's behind spoiler tags.
The techs on the chopping block are (from early to late):
Other Deletions
I've already mentioned getting rid of Modern Art Theatre, Rubber Plant and Early Destroyer. The other two things that I want to get rid of are the Heavy Cruiser and the Landing Ship Tank. The Industrial Era is overloaded with naval units. We have three transport ships (Steamer, Transport, and Landing Ship Tank), three light warships (Iron Frigate, Early Destroyer, and Destroyer), three medium warships (Battlecruiser, Cruiser, and Heavy Cruiser), three heavy warships (Ironclad Battleship, Dreadnought, and Battleship), and three oddballs, two of which are the beginnings of lines (Ironclad, Submarine, and Carrier). I like having some of these ships, but not all. I think Heavy Cruiser is especially redundant and can be deleted. Landing Ship Tank is also too much too soon. Transport has barely any time to be usable, between Automobile and Amphibious Warfare. I will give Transport the stats of LST, so you get a nice upgrade at that point.
I'm pretty happy with this mix. I think I picked the best 40 technologies the Industrial Era has to offer. I did consider a couple other possibilities, but I think this is what I want to see.
I have not tried to recalibrate the research numbers. The new costing scheme is 3200 for the first column, increasing by 200 after. That's about 5% (4-6%, depending on placement) for each column. I could make the slope steeper. The current total base costs (the <iCost> in Civ4TechInfos.xml) is less than 70%. We could increase Industrial research times by almost 50%.
The reason for cutting out so many techs is that I think we have both too many techs in the Industrial Era, and too many techs total. The Industrial Era is 55 techs long. The Renaissance Era is only 35. If we want to have the eras be the same length of turns, that means Industrial Era techs have to be researched more quickly. This results in Industrial Eras being faster to research than Renaissance. I don't think this is good.
Also, we have increased the total number of techs by a larger factor than the increase in game speed. Normal speed in AND is 1200 turns, vs. 500 for BTS. This is a 240% factor. There are 91 techs in BTS (excluding Future Tech) and 280 techs in AND (again, excluding Future Tech). This is a 307% factor. So this forces us to actually have to have techs be researched faster than BTS. I don't want to add more turns because I think that increases the ending fatigue and rewards warmongering (wars take less % of the total game) more than it probably should. Removing techs will allow us to slow down research speed and make individual techs feel like more of an achievement.
I do plan to do a little bit of cutting to the Modern and Transhuman Eras. I think we can easily get the Modern Era down to 40 and the Transhuman to possibly 45.
For those who want to see the whole era, I uploaded a PNG to ImageShack so I can post it here. It's a big image, so it's behind spoiler tags.
Spoiler :
The techs on the chopping block are (from early to late):
- Machine Tools
- Thermodynamics
- Public Health
- Agricultural Engineering
- Refining
- Marxism
- Repeating Weapons
- Mass Transit
- Public Schooling
- Armored Vehicles
- Modern Art
- Submarine Warfare
- Rocketry
- Guerrilla Warfare
- Naval Aviation
Spoiler :
Other Deletions
I've already mentioned getting rid of Modern Art Theatre, Rubber Plant and Early Destroyer. The other two things that I want to get rid of are the Heavy Cruiser and the Landing Ship Tank. The Industrial Era is overloaded with naval units. We have three transport ships (Steamer, Transport, and Landing Ship Tank), three light warships (Iron Frigate, Early Destroyer, and Destroyer), three medium warships (Battlecruiser, Cruiser, and Heavy Cruiser), three heavy warships (Ironclad Battleship, Dreadnought, and Battleship), and three oddballs, two of which are the beginnings of lines (Ironclad, Submarine, and Carrier). I like having some of these ships, but not all. I think Heavy Cruiser is especially redundant and can be deleted. Landing Ship Tank is also too much too soon. Transport has barely any time to be usable, between Automobile and Amphibious Warfare. I will give Transport the stats of LST, so you get a nice upgrade at that point.
I'm pretty happy with this mix. I think I picked the best 40 technologies the Industrial Era has to offer. I did consider a couple other possibilities, but I think this is what I want to see.
I have not tried to recalibrate the research numbers. The new costing scheme is 3200 for the first column, increasing by 200 after. That's about 5% (4-6%, depending on placement) for each column. I could make the slope steeper. The current total base costs (the <iCost> in Civ4TechInfos.xml) is less than 70%. We could increase Industrial research times by almost 50%.
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
Rocketry is a BTS tech though isn't it? Strange seeing that being cut, but I see the logic behind it so don't have much a problem with it.
Good to see the Industrial Era finally being trimmed down; one of my biggest complaints with AND was when a nation was the first into that era. They basically were given free reign to mop up every World First and Wonder possible because they could tackle all the 5 ~ 9 turn techs while everyone else was stuck on the 20+ turn techs of the previous era.
After they've denied the world all the special goodies in the Industrial, only then would they return to cleaning up the techs they missed and possibly get a Tech Diffusion discount to boot.
Good to see the Industrial Era finally being trimmed down; one of my biggest complaints with AND was when a nation was the first into that era. They basically were given free reign to mop up every World First and Wonder possible because they could tackle all the 5 ~ 9 turn techs while everyone else was stuck on the 20+ turn techs of the previous era.
After they've denied the world all the special goodies in the Industrial, only then would they return to cleaning up the techs they missed and possibly get a Tech Diffusion discount to boot.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
Sounds good to me Vokarya. Just keep in mind that, although I've planned eras to last more or less same number of turns, I've left some more room in terms of turns from industrial era onwards. So if people are using Realistic Timescale with blitz speed for example (600 turns), each era should last 85 turns (+5 turns at the end), but research costs were balanced so that eras with less techs can last a little less while eras like industrial can last a little longer. Of course I can easily balance this with ResearchPercent once you're done with your changes on the tech tree without touching the actual tech costs, which I also think should increase while the game is advancing through eras.
gay_Aleks
from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!
My only issue is with the placement of School. It feels so odd, to be placed in a strictly scientific tech. I'd think you should move it to Psychology.
GreedyManul
Warlord
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2013
- Messages
- 292
45°38'N-13°47'E;14288944 said:
You really should do that, because barreling through transhuman and researching up to 4 techs in 1 turn is just plain silly, especially when one doesn't want to play with realistic timescale.
Yeah, agreed.
But apart from those, everything vokarya's saying sounds good.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
It happens precisely because you're not using Realistic Timescale. Try a game with it enabled, game looks a lot more balanced. I will balance it anyway, but I suggest you try that option.
GreedyManul
Warlord
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2013
- Messages
- 292
45°38'N-13°47'E;14289101 said:
I did in a game session when I played as Nefertiti; it indeed was more balanced, as I didn't barrel through the tech tree like a wrecking ball. My concern is how by disabling a random option, you can debalance a game so easily, so I'm looking forward to seeing you balance it out for players who don't want to play with Realistic Timescale.
I said this before, but actually Rocketry is going back to the Modern Era and giving Advanced Rocketry the boot (I don't like a tech with Advanced in its name; we should find something more concrete). In regular Civ4, Rocketry does a lot; it's got Gunship/SAM Infantry, Guided Missile/Tactical Nuke/ICBM, Attack Sub, Apollo Program, and Aluminum Co. Our Rocketry will have a lot of that, plus more nuclear stuff (Missile Lab, Warhead Factory, MAD civic, but not Apollo). Fission and Rocketry are two techs where almost all the tricks revolve around nuclear weapons.
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
As far as the Modern and Transhuman Eras go, I don't have to do as many cuts. The Industrial got the most cuts because it was the largest era overall.
The Modern Era is 45 techs, so it only needs 5 removals to get down to 40. There are at least 9 techs that I wouldn't mind removing, so it's a matter of picking out 5 weak techs to get the axe. What I am actually looking to do is cut 6 techs to make room for one new tech: Synthetic Fibers. This would allow Modern Infantry (moved up from Manufacturing, making a bit more space between Infantry and Modern Infantry), Modern Paratrooper (moved down from Modern Warfare, making MW less trick-heavy), and Emperors Clothing (moved up from Assembly Line, switched over to gold production rather than Culture; Fashion House becomes the "haute couture" and Emperors Clothing is "mass market"; I'd like to have more Modern Era corporations and differentiate some of the existing corps).
The Transhuman Era is 52 techs, but I don't think I can cut it down all the way to 40. Here I am more looking to evaluate each tech and decide if it can be merged into other techs without too many issues. I have a few good candidates.
The Modern Era is 45 techs, so it only needs 5 removals to get down to 40. There are at least 9 techs that I wouldn't mind removing, so it's a matter of picking out 5 weak techs to get the axe. What I am actually looking to do is cut 6 techs to make room for one new tech: Synthetic Fibers. This would allow Modern Infantry (moved up from Manufacturing, making a bit more space between Infantry and Modern Infantry), Modern Paratrooper (moved down from Modern Warfare, making MW less trick-heavy), and Emperors Clothing (moved up from Assembly Line, switched over to gold production rather than Culture; Fashion House becomes the "haute couture" and Emperors Clothing is "mass market"; I'd like to have more Modern Era corporations and differentiate some of the existing corps).
The Transhuman Era is 52 techs, but I don't think I can cut it down all the way to 40. Here I am more looking to evaluate each tech and decide if it can be merged into other techs without too many issues. I have a few good candidates.
Here is one place where I want to do some cutting. The genetic technologies in the late Modern and early Transhuman Era are too specific for my taste. I would like to cut some of them to make the resulting techs stronger and more plausible.
The starting point is these six technologies, four Modern Era and two Transhuman:
I think we are over-optimistic on the placement of Cloning. Modern Era Cloning is a laboratory curiosity, not a mature tech. I also think that Biomaterials and Replacement Organs exhaust themselves with their tricks and don't have any room to grow. Furthermore, +1 health is very over-used. I really don't like to see it on techs other than Future Tech, where it is a reward for continuing to keep the Science slider up after finishing the tree. I can leave one shot of it, but I don't want to see it again and again.
So this is what I came up with.
Genetics requires Networking instead of Microprocessor. This pushes it up one level on the Tech Tree (Modern-7).
Genetics keeps the +1 health all cities and Human Genome Project. It picks up all of Gene Manipulation's and Biomaterials' yield bonuses. It also gets the Cloning Laboratory, renamed to Genetics Laboratory. Genetics Laboratory adds +8 science (flat) per turn. First Cloned Mammal is not required for Genetics Laboratory. This gives it a trick count of 4.
Genetic Engineering is a rename of Gene Manipulation. It requires Genetics + Knowledge Management. This puts it at Modern-8, which is nearly the last level of the Modern. The Modern Era has two "outlier" techs at level 9: Cloning and Cyberwarfare. I will probably drop Cyberwarfare by a level to remove the column.
Genetic Engineering gets the BBM, the Biofuel Refinery, the First Cloned Mammal, the Sanitize action, and the Organ Bank. Organ Bank is downgraded from a National Wonder to a building and only provides a health bonus to its city. We have enough National Wonders for the post-Industrial Era, but we need ordinary buildings. This gives it a trick count of 5.
Cloning is moved to the Transhuman Era. It requires at least Genetic Engineering + Micromechanics. Cloning allows Cloning Tanks (rename of Cloning Factory), the Superhuman civic, Clones, Cyborg (along with Cybernetics), Genetic Soldier, Longevity, and Pleistocene Park. This gives it a very strong trick count of 7. The Cloning Tanks are no longer required to train Automatons. They will be required to train Genetic Soldier and Super Soldier. Most of the things that required a Genetics Laboratory to build will instead require Cloning Tanks.
The Great Engineer from Biomaterials winds up at Modern Seismology. This was the most appropriate tech I could find with a low trick count.
Automatons get a concept shift. They won't be clones anymore; instead, they are cheap, human-shaped, remote-controlled robots. Instead of requiring a Cloning Factory, they require a Computer Network and Semiconductors to train.
Regenerator is moved up to Nanobotics. I think it is good to have a little more room before it shows up.
The starting point is these six technologies, four Modern Era and two Transhuman:
- Genetics (+1 health, Human Genome Project)
- Gene Manipulation (+1 health, Sanitize, +yields from improvements, BBM unit)
- Biomaterials (Great Engineer, Biofuel Refinery, +yields from improvements)
- Cloning (Superhuman, Clones, Automatons, Cyborg, Cloning Laboratory, Cloning Factory, First Cloned Mammal, Pleistocene Park)
- Replacement Organs (+1 health, Organ Bank)
- Regenerative Medicine (Genetic Soldier, Regenerator, Longevity)
I think we are over-optimistic on the placement of Cloning. Modern Era Cloning is a laboratory curiosity, not a mature tech. I also think that Biomaterials and Replacement Organs exhaust themselves with their tricks and don't have any room to grow. Furthermore, +1 health is very over-used. I really don't like to see it on techs other than Future Tech, where it is a reward for continuing to keep the Science slider up after finishing the tree. I can leave one shot of it, but I don't want to see it again and again.
So this is what I came up with.
Genetics requires Networking instead of Microprocessor. This pushes it up one level on the Tech Tree (Modern-7).
Genetics keeps the +1 health all cities and Human Genome Project. It picks up all of Gene Manipulation's and Biomaterials' yield bonuses. It also gets the Cloning Laboratory, renamed to Genetics Laboratory. Genetics Laboratory adds +8 science (flat) per turn. First Cloned Mammal is not required for Genetics Laboratory. This gives it a trick count of 4.
Genetic Engineering is a rename of Gene Manipulation. It requires Genetics + Knowledge Management. This puts it at Modern-8, which is nearly the last level of the Modern. The Modern Era has two "outlier" techs at level 9: Cloning and Cyberwarfare. I will probably drop Cyberwarfare by a level to remove the column.
Genetic Engineering gets the BBM, the Biofuel Refinery, the First Cloned Mammal, the Sanitize action, and the Organ Bank. Organ Bank is downgraded from a National Wonder to a building and only provides a health bonus to its city. We have enough National Wonders for the post-Industrial Era, but we need ordinary buildings. This gives it a trick count of 5.
Cloning is moved to the Transhuman Era. It requires at least Genetic Engineering + Micromechanics. Cloning allows Cloning Tanks (rename of Cloning Factory), the Superhuman civic, Clones, Cyborg (along with Cybernetics), Genetic Soldier, Longevity, and Pleistocene Park. This gives it a very strong trick count of 7. The Cloning Tanks are no longer required to train Automatons. They will be required to train Genetic Soldier and Super Soldier. Most of the things that required a Genetics Laboratory to build will instead require Cloning Tanks.
The Great Engineer from Biomaterials winds up at Modern Seismology. This was the most appropriate tech I could find with a low trick count.
Automatons get a concept shift. They won't be clones anymore; instead, they are cheap, human-shaped, remote-controlled robots. Instead of requiring a Cloning Factory, they require a Computer Network and Semiconductors to train.
Regenerator is moved up to Nanobotics. I think it is good to have a little more room before it shows up.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
Because it would take 7,5 millions of years to explain that 42, while you only need this answer to explain that 40.
Multiples of 10 have a sense of completion to me, like the whole work is well-thought-out and not just any number of ideas have been crammed together. I had more than enough cuts to get the Industrial below 50, so I thought I would see if I could go down to 40; since the Renaissance Era is only 35 techs, I really wanted those two eras closer together. Going lower would require more painful cuts (the next candidates for removal would be Telegraph, Photography, Relativity, and Radar; alternatives would be moving Corporation back to the Renaissance, or Consumerism, Plastics, or Refrigeration to the Modern). The Modern Era could go below 40, but I think I will stop there.
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