Tech Tree Revisions

[Noyyau]

I think that the Industrial and Modern eras, given the substantial amount of techs and buildings they have, and the increased complexity of the game by that time, could be allowed to be proportionally longer (i.e. turn number) than previous eras.
Tech costs should never decrease, going forward into the tech tree.

 

[Vokarya]

I totally agree. By the way, I can't check now if we've already done something similar, but if we can't remove too many industrial techs, are there some techs that can be simply reassigned to renaissance or modern? On the other hand maybe modern era has already a good number of techs, so I'm not sure it's a good idea.

I've got some ideas that I am starting to kick around and see what is possible. I want to finish this whole graphics rework before I start posting them.

The biggest issue is sheer numbers of techs. The pre-Industrial eras currently split 37-29-29-35. The Ancient Era gets more techs because it mixes a few Stone Age concepts (Ceremonial Burial, Naturopathy) along with the Bronze Age.

The Industrial and later eras have counts of 55-45-52, after removing Romanticism, Realism, Computer Networks, and Wearable Computers. It's been so long since I proposed getting rid of those techs that I'm totally used to them being gone. Trying to get down to 40 per era would mean chopping out 32 techs total. I don't know if that is possible, but I plan to try. I think it will mean gutting the Industrial Era and rebuilding it from the skeleton.

I see at least one possibility for shifting techs backwards from the Transhuman to the Modern (Automated Traffic), but I don't see any chance of shifting from the Industrial to the Renaissance. I think it's appropriate to use a timeline to place techs in the Renaissance era and later because that is when Western Europe starts to really set the technological pace. The last column of the Renaissance Era is the technologies of the Napoleonic Wars; Grand War and Military Tradition are here, and so is Democracy, which is taking off in the USA at least. The only technologies that I have dated to pre-1815 are Steam Power and Assembly Line, and these are so iconic to the Industrial Era that I cannot justify moving them backwards.

 

[<Nexus>]

@Resca
Are you using "No tech brokering"?

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I've got some ideas that I am starting to kick around and see what is possible. I want to finish this whole graphics rework before I start posting them.

The biggest issue is sheer numbers of techs. The pre-Industrial eras currently split 37-29-29-35. The Ancient Era gets more techs because it mixes a few Stone Age concepts (Ceremonial Burial, Naturopathy) along with the Bronze Age.

The Industrial and later eras have counts of 55-45-52, after removing Romanticism, Realism, Computer Networks, and Wearable Computers. It's been so long since I proposed getting rid of those techs that I'm totally used to them being gone. Trying to get down to 40 per era would mean chopping out 32 techs total. I don't know if that is possible, but I plan to try. I think it will mean gutting the Industrial Era and rebuilding it from the skeleton.

I see at least one possibility for shifting techs backwards from the Transhuman to the Modern (Automated Traffic), but I don't see any chance of shifting from the Industrial to the Renaissance. I think it's appropriate to use a timeline to place techs in the Renaissance era and later because that is when Western Europe starts to really set the technological pace. The last column of the Renaissance Era is the technologies of the Napoleonic Wars; Grand War and Military Tradition are here, and so is Democracy, which is taking off in the USA at least. The only technologies that I have dated to pre-1815 are Steam Power and Assembly Line, and these are so iconic to the Industrial Era that I cannot justify moving them backwards.

Chopping 32 techs might be extreme. It's probably easier for me to check and find some kind of correction in balancing to make industrial and later era to last longer. Probably making industrial, modern and transhuman era last 50% more would be OK and it could solve the issue of decreasing tech costs and that feeling of eras passing by too quickly. If this is the case, I wonder if it's better to add more turns to each gamespeed or to keep total number of turns and reduce number of turns a bit in ancient, classical, medieval and Renaissance. I think the second option would be better. Opinions?

 

[<Nexus>]

Opinion:
Please, do not decrease turn numbers. I always play on snail, because the early game feels too fast for me, just rushing through the early eras.

An idea:
How about adding a new are between Modern and Trans-Human? Atomic or Information.
Than rearrange techs and increase the number of turns for these eras.
"The Industrial and later eras have counts of 55-45-52" that's 152 total.
152/4=38
I have no idea how easy or hard would it be to reassign techs this way bur I think it is worth to consider at least. Around 38 would be a very good tech count imo

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Opinion:
Please, do not decrease turn numbers. I always play on snail, because the early game feels too fast for me, just rushing through the early eras.

An idea:
How about adding a new are between Modern and Trans-Human? Atomic or Information.
Than rearrange techs and increase the number of turns for these eras.
"The Industrial and later eras have counts of 55-45-52" that's 152 total.
152/4=38
I have no idea how easy or hard would it be to reassign techs this way bur I think it is worth to consider at least. Around 38 would be a very good tech count imo

Adding an era between modern and transhuman wouldn't help to spread industrial techs. But I might consider Industrial-Atomic-Modern-Transhuman (would it be strange to rename Transhuman to Space Era? Or something else? Transhuman always sounded a bit strange to me). This way we might move some later industrial techs to atomic, some modern to atomic and some Transhuman/space to modern. What do you think Vokarya? This might be an easier solution. Good suggestion ZN.

Edit: on the other hand, we would have to add turns anyway, so calling a slice of the game with another era name would be less important.

 

[Arakhor]

Transhuman is a classic sci-fi term, unlike the endlessly vague and unhelpful Modern. Please don't change that. Furthermore, please don't rip out techs just to hit some arbitrary number. I'd certainly expect there to be more techs in the later eras, simply because the people of that civilisation know and do more as a whole.

 

[<Nexus>]

Adding an era between modern and transhuman wouldn't help to spread industrial techs. But I might consider Industrial-Atomic-Modern-Transhuman (would it be strange to rename Transhuman to Space Era? Or something else? Transhuman always sounded a bit strange to me). This way we might move some later industrial techs to atomic, some modern to atomic and some Transhuman/space to modern. What do you think Vokarya? This might be an easier solution. Good suggestion ZN.

I suggested something between Modern and TH because in Civ5 it's Industrial-Modern-Atomic-Information. So yes, that would mean moving some Ind.era techs to Modern, and moving a lot of Modern stuff to the new era.
How about splitting Modern era into Atomic and Information eras?

Renaming Trans-Human era to Space era? Maybe, but I'm okay with TH as well.

On the other hand: Do we really need a separate Future era when it consists of only 1 tech? Wouldn't it be better if the game would just end in the TH(or Space or whatever) era with the multi-researchable Future Tech?

Edit: on the other hand, we would have to add turns anyway, so calling a slice of the game with another era name would be less important.

Sure, but as I remember Vokarya wanted each era to have about the same number of tech.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Splitting modern in atomic-information era sounds good too (how does "digital era" sound instead of information?). I would have to rework balancing but it might be worth it. We should then increase total turns for each gamespeed: instead of 600-900-1200-1800-2400-3600-4800 turns we would probably have 700-1050-1400-2100-2800-4200-5600 turns. Does it sound good enough?

 

[<Nexus>]

Good enough for me
Digital era is truly better too.

I just wonder what Vokarya thinks about all this.

off:
As I see now the AND2 team has shrunk down to only the two of you as dbkblk has left and Afforess disappeared again

 

[Arakhor]

I like the term Digital Era.

So, it would be Industrial - Atomic - Digital - Transhuman, right?

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I like the term Digital Era.

So, it would be Industrial - Atomic - Digital - Transhuman, right?

Exactly.

About the team, there's only Vokarya actively working on the mod right now. But I can do some preliminary work on rebalancing while I can't actually work on the mod.
As for Afforess, I'm sure he can lend a hand if needed. I haven't asked him because I don't think we're in such an emergency situation

 

[Vokarya]

I don't think adding another era is going to do anything more than rearrange the deck chairs. The problem remains that we have X techs in Y turns of game time and the player needs to be able to research them all before the end of the game, so that forces a tech pace on us. We need to remove techs if we're going to slow down the tech pace.

I think adding more turns would require a lot of rebalancing, and I keep thinking that increasing the game speed would favor the attacker in a war, because unit speed and attacks don't scale with game speed. An invader has to cross X tiles and defeat Y enemy units to win a war, and on a slower scale, that's less of a percentage of the total game. I don't think it tips the balance, but it makes it harder for a defender to switch gears to deal with a war.

I did a pass through the tech tree, and overall I can fairly easily nominate 28 techs to go away, with 12 that I wouldn't even blink at chopping. I can cut the Industrial Era down to 42 techs, which is much better than 55.

 

[gay_Aleks]

But the content in the cut techs will remain, right?

 

[<Nexus>]

I don't think adding another era is going to do anything more than rearrange the deck chairs. The problem remains that we have X techs in Y turns of game time.

That's why 45 would increase Y ~12% - though I would not increase all gamespeed turn numbers, only from Industrial onward.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Well, adding another era AND adding 100 turns on Blitz and scaling up for gamespeed it's not hard. Balancing research, culture, gold would be easy enough too. What's not so easy is balancing specialists, number of buildings or wonders per era and so on, if we need or want to do it. Basically all the balancing Vokarya has done. So I will not add turns or eras if it's not OK for Vokarya.

 

[Samson]

I wonder how you calculate turn times from beaker totals? Is this based on some set of games? I do frequently get a high growth rate in the industrial era, and it seems to me to go a bit quicker than earlier eras though I have not measured it.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I wonder how you calculate turn times from beaker totals? Is this based on some set of games? I do frequently get a high growth rate in the industrial era, and it seems to me to go a bit quicker than earlier eras though I have not measured it.

Well, I've just based values on empirical experiments. I've tried literally hundreds of games with different options to ensure that they work good most of the times.

Edit: you can't use beakers because they might vary depending on options (for example No Transhuman era, Flexible difficulty, realistic timescale, advanced starts and so on).

 

[Rezca]

@Resca
Are you using "No tech brokering"?

I;'ve been playing with No Brokering AND no Trading more and more and more often lately because of how insane the AI are with their "offers". It's bad enough that I feel that the game plays better with tech trading disabled entirely - it's not like I'm missing out on anything with it off

And yes, it really is that bad. I'll play at Noble, and the AI will as for 4,980 gold of my 4,895 treasure, a tech or two, several workers, and contacts with every other nation..... For one tech. The best deals I tend to get are a tech (or two) for a tech.... But only if I'm already JUST about to finish it anyway. Usually they ask for a ton of money on top of it though - I'll give you this tech you'll finish in a few turns, if you give me a tech and half of everything you own.



As for the era / tech count discussion... I'd vouch for reducing the tech count a bit more first, THEN see if an extra era would work or not

 

[Vokarya]

But the content in the cut techs will remain, right?

Yes, but I might cut some things if we don't need them. I'm way more likely to reassign content.

For example. I think two easy cuts to make would be to remove Machine Tools and Mass Transit. We've actually already discussed cutting Machine Tools. It doesn't really add anything that isn't already covered by Steam Power, Assembly Line, Industrialism, or Manufacturing. Mass Transit is okay but I don't think it adds as much either.

But if we cut these techs, we need to reassign their content.

Machine Tools has two tricks, Cannery and Drydock. I wouldn't want to get rid of either of these, as both are part of building lines and Drydock is in BTS.

• Cannery gets moved to Steam Power. It needs the help more than Assembly Line.
• Drydock gets moved to Screw Propeller. This is exactly when Ironclad, the first steam warship, comes available.

Mass Transit actually has 4.5 tricks: Public Transportation, Highways, Moonbeam Coffee and Moonbeam Coffeehouse, and +1 commerce from Lumbermills. I wouldn't get rid of any of these.

• Public Transportation moves to Automobile.
• Highway improvement also moves to Automobile.
• +1 commerce from Lumbermill can be put just about anywhere in the Industrial Era.
• Moonbeam Coffee and Moonbeam Coffeehouse would get a big transplant. I would increase the bonuses a little and move them up to Counterculture. I think we need more Modern Era corporations. BTS splits the original 7 corps 3/4: Mining Inc (Railroad), Creative Constructions (Combustion), Sid's Sushi (Medicine) vs. Aluminum Co (Rocketry), Civilized Jewelers (Mass Media), Cereal Mills (Refrigeration), Standard Ethanonl (Plastics). In BTS, Refrigeration, Rocketry, and Plastics are all Modern Era techs, while in AND, they are Industrial. We have 23 corporations, only 4 of which are currently Modern Era: Adventure Tours, MallWart, MileHigh, and Mapster. The rest are Industrial and I would like closer to an even split.