Tell me bout the dark ages!

TheLastOne36

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I seem to be lacking in European history from the fall of Rome to around the time of the recorded formation of Poland. (996)

I'd like to know the important stuff about this time of history, who was who and where and what important people should I know.

For example, The Visigoths, Goths, Avars, the Turkish expansion into Anatolia, Franks, Huns and everything confuse me.
 
I just finished reading an awesome new book by Chris Wickham about this very subject, called The Inheritance of Rome: Illuminating the Dark Ages. It's pretty damn good. And recommending it to you would take a helluva lot less time than typing up a :):):):) ton of stuff attempting to summarize post-Western Roman Europe. ;) Any specific questions I'd be more than happy to address, though, providing I know about what you're talking about.

FWIW the Turks weren't in Anatolia before the formation of Poland. :3
 
Well first of all, the term "Dark Ages" can die in a fire. The term was an invention of historians (before it became trendy to be unbiased, pssh) proclaiming it to be an era of moral decadence.
 
I don't intend to buy any book at the moment. (And I doubt they carry it here)

How about we start with Italy. What happened in Italy after the fall of Rome, how did all those City States form out of Rome?
 
The way the Western Empire fell was that an army commander, Odoacer, who had been one of the powers behind the throne for awhile, decided that having an emperor sucked when the emperor's dad had a fight with him about the allotment of lands to the army troops. So Odoacer had the emperor deposed and in theory recognized the Eastern Roman Emperor, Zeno, as the only Roman Emperor. Odoacer got "permission" to hold Italy (which was more or less all that the Western Empire still controlled at the end) as a "Patrician". In reality it was Odoacer's kingdom, since Zeno was at the time fighting for his life against all sorts of internal enemies. Odoacer controlled Italy and Illyria and Pannonia and janx until 488.

In 488 Zeno got rid of some of those internal political enemies by sending one of his rivals, Theodoric Amal, and his Ostrogothic buddies out of the Eastern Empire to go to Italy with permission to get rid of Odoacer and settle over there. After five years of war Theodoric managed to force Odoacer into retreating behind the walls of his capital, Ravenna, but since Ravenna was hard to capture he offered Odoacer peace terms that allowed joint rule between the two of them over Italy. Odoacer gave up, opened the gates, the Ostrogoths came in, and sat down to a celebratory banquet, whereat Theodoric had Odoacer murdered and took charge by himself.

Theodoric controlled the Ostrogothic Kingdom of Italy until 526, and under his rule Italy was actually not doing all that badly. Most of the governmental offices were preserved from the late Roman period, with mostly the same people working in them - there weren't all that many Ostrogoths, after all, and most of the ones that were around mostly busied themselves with fighting Burgundians and Scirians and Gepidae and so forth, not mucking around in Italy itself. Because his reign was a comparative golden age, Theodoric gets called "the Great". When he died, though, some bad stuff happened. There was a power struggle over the regency for the next king in line for the throne, and the loser - Theodoric's daughter Amalasuntha - went asking for the Eastern Roman Empire's help in getting rid of her enemy, Theodahad. Justinian, the Roman Emperor, said "cool beans, an excuse to intervene in Italy and control it for reals" and sent over an army that conquered most of the peninsula.

Except it didn't. There were a few Goth holdouts left by 540, which was when most campaigning ended. The Eastern Empire had to reduce its military commitment because of Sasanian attacks. Then it got hit by the plague. And suddenly those Goths started winning again. The Empire eventually beat them, but it took until 555, and by then Italy was a virtual wasteland. Plague and constant warfare for decades turned what had been a comparatively thriving state into a disaster area. Ten years later the Lombards came in and captured much of the peninsula. By 700 they controlled northern Italy, and two Lombard duchies were in control of the inland part of southern Italy. The Byzantines - we can call them Byzantines now - had Sicily, extreme southern Italy, Rome, Ravenna, and a strip of land connecting Rome and Ravenna.

During the course of the first episode of iconoclasm in the Byzantine Empire, the Lombards under their king Aistulf managed to capture Ravenna, and the Pope at the time, Stephen II, said "screw it, we hate iconoclasts anyway" and made an alliance with Pepin the Short of Francia to fight off the Lombards. Pepin won the war and in return for giving him the excuse to intervene in northern Italy gave the Papacy control of the old Exarchate of Ravenna. Basically, the area of what would eventually become the Papal States. Pepin left the rest of the Lombard state as it was, but his successor Charlemagne ended up invading and conquering the Lombard kingdom in 774. Northern Italy was thus incorporated into the Carolingian monarchy, except for the autonomous Papal States and Venice, which was still controlled by nominally Byzantine dukes.

Southern Italy was a different story. The Byzantines held outposts on the coast, plus much of the southern tip in Calabria and Apulia. Inland, the Lombard feudatories in Benevento and such were in charge. And in Sicily, the Byzantines held onto it entirely until Arab and Moorish raiding parties started to take control of the western portion of the island in the early 9th century. Those raiding parties would expand and drive the Byzantines off after a hundred fifty years. But the Byzantines would strike back and capture the Lombard duchies (mostly) in the 870s under Basil I. They thus had a strong hold over south Italy from then on until the eleventh century. Then came the Normans, who were going all the hell over Europe at that time, who ended up conquering south Italy and Sicily from the Byzantines and creating their own little kingdom, appropriately titled the Kingdom of Sicily.

Venice was another matter. Nicephorus I, the Byzantine Emperor, and Charlemagne had a few fights over it, and the Venetians themselves changed sides a couple of times too. Eventually Charlemagne decided that he didn't care enough to press the issue and Nicephorus wanted to focus on reconquering Greece from the Slavs, so they basically agreed to leave the place be and let the Venetians exercise de facto independence, though they were more or less allied to the Byzantines until the twelfth century. The old duces became doges, and Venice developed into a republic, but still small and not in control of a large fleet, colonial empire, or terra firma yet.

North Italy started going all cluster:):):):) after the Carolingian kingdom broke up. First Lothair I was in charge of the Italian part of the empire, but when he died it got split up between a few of his sons. The Eastern and Western Francian rulers started fighting over control of Italy, and first Charles the Bald, and then Charles the Fat took charge, and then a dude named Berengar became Emperor with a power base in Italy but spent almost all of his reign fighting off rivals and antikings. So northern Italy would basically be a feudatory mess until the Ottonians of East Francia/Germany took charge and constituted the Holy Roman Empire out of Italy and Germany.

Under the Ottonians, northern Italy was definitely a secondary concern, and this continued for centuries afterwards as well. The Emperors were usually off in Germany and Italy was left without a strong hand; since there were few large landowners after the bloodletting of the late 9th and early 10th centuries, towns stepped into the gap, which was cool since northern Italy was urbanizing pretty quickly compared to most of the rest of Europe. This is where we see the rise of Genoa in addition to Venice. Inland cities eventually formed leagues to oppose the Emperors whenever they tried to extend their power south again (the most famous of these being the Lombard league). The Lombard League beat Barbarossa at Legnano in 1176 and continued a strong tradition of resisting imperial authority until the advent of Henry VI and Frederick II 'Stupor Mundi'. Henry VI, however, ended up controlling Norman Sicily, and that meant he had a base in Italy to attack the Lombard League and its successor organizations. Things got very ugly between 1194 and 1250, when the Pope and the Lombard League and a series of rebels in Germany and the Angevins of France all ganged up on the Imperials, and won. After Fred II, the Empire's control over Italy was mostly fictional. The interregnum Emperors were generally quite weak (exceptions being Henry VII and Louis IV) and so ceded what authority they still had to some of the stronger rulers in the area. This was how, for instance, the duchy of Milan got created. Northern Italy during the 14th and 15th centuries rapidly became dotted with a series of territories, which in most specifics differed little from the ones that prevailed during the 18th century. Meanwhile Sicily and south Italy, going variously by the "Kingdom of Naples" and "Kingdom of the Two Sicilies" monikers, was controlled first by the Angevins of France and then the Aragonese and then the Spanish Habsburgs and then the Austrian Habsburgs and then the Spanish Bourbons until its ultimate demise in 1860. It didn't change a whole lot, boundary-wise, either.

Then there's a whole lot of interesting social changes that probably take place like the urbanization of northern Italy and economic stuff like the rise of the maritime trading republics outside of the Italian arena and a whole series of wars and revolutions, some of which are extremely interesting and some of which are mostly "same old, same old", but frankly this post is too long as it is and I'm far too tired and besides I need to induce myself to vomit or I'll never get this crap out of my throat and it hurts like a mother:):):):)er.
 
Well first of all, the term "Dark Ages" can die in a fire. The term was an invention of historians (before it became trendy to be unbiased, pssh) proclaiming it to be an era of moral decadence.
Actually, the term was invented because we didn't know much about them, not because of any perceived moral decadence.

@Dachs: Great post, although you seemed to lose your mind at the end.
 
Others have said similar, but what term should be used for this period?

The early Middle Ages.

Anyone with Civ III who wants to learn about Britain during this period should of course play the superb scenario The Rood and the Dragon. I've heard it's terribly good.
 
Wow is all hat i can say. It explains so much about Italy i this time period.

In your post, you briefly mentioned the Burgundians. I'm not well afflaited with their early history, or that of France. To me, all of those minor french states confuse me.
 
Wow is all hat i can say. It explains so much about Italy i this time period.

In your post, you briefly mentioned the Burgundians. I'm not well afflaited with their early history, or that of France. To me, all of those minor french states confuse me.
Burgundy was actually a pretty major French/Italian state for a while there. I think it may have even been stronger than France itself at points in time during the Hundred Years' War. Basically - Dachs can probably expand on this a lot, and likely correct a bunch of mistakes as well - Burgundy was founded, funnily enough, by the Burgundii, and grew progressively stronger through a series of wars with France, Lombardy, and others, periodically aligning itself with England, France, and whoever else it felt could benefit it the most. Then France hulked up and conquered it. There's my half-hearted and half-arsed addition to this thread.
 
Wow is all hat i can say. It explains so much about Italy i this time period.

In your post, you briefly mentioned the Burgundians. I'm not well afflaited with their early history, or that of France. To me, all of those minor french states confuse me.

They didn't really have states at all, at least in the Merovingian period. This was partly because they had no law of primogeniture (that is, the oldest son inherits the lot), so every time a king died his various sons and other claimants would all get an area to rule. They would then go to war and the stronger ones would absorb the territories of the weaker ones, until they died and the process would start again. This is why, in the sixth and seventh centuries, you might read about "the court of king so-and-so" without any clear indication of where he was king of. If he was Merovingian, he was king of whatever bit of that general area he happened to be occupying at that moment; the kingdom had no persistence beyond the reign of the king.

Something similar happened on a larger scale after the death of Louis the Pious, Charlemagne's son, and it was the division of the empire among his sons in 843 that created what would one day become France and Germany (and various other bits). But there would be a lot more conquering, dividing, and general confusion before those countries would really exist in any vaguely recognisable form.
 
Yeah.

In addition to what Plotinus said, the 'Burgundians' are kinda loosely connected with a group of people, the Burgundii, that settled vaguely around what is now Geneva, Lyon, and Besançon - more or less, the Rhone river valley plus some Alps and Franche-Comté - in the last fifty years of the Roman Empire. Their kingdom managed to survive longer than most of the other independent ones, but eventually they got kinda stuck between the Merovingians, Ostrogoths, and Visigoths, and Clovis' sons took the place over in the sixth century. The actual Burgundii people, like most of the migratory groups that settled in what used to be the Western Roman Empire, were mostly assimilated by the native population within a few centuries anyway.

The region was still called 'Burgundy' though under the Merovingians, like Plot said, and frequently one of the kings' sons would end up getting to style himself king upon his father's death and exercise a vague kind of control over the region. These Merovingian sons fought a mind-numbing series of wars with each other, engaged in more vicious political infighting than even the Byzantines (well, maybe not, but it was close), and overall were pretty bloody confusing. Under the Carolingians Burgundy was theoretically a kingdom (Lothair I was in charge of it, for instance) with fairly well-defined borders, but in the unholy political mess of the late ninth century and early tenth century it usually ended up being an adjunct to the incessant fighting in Italy. Eventually a dude named Conrad took over most of the territory that the old Burgundii had controlled and kept it more or less intact for almost the entire tenth century. His successor Rudolf kept it going until 1030something when the Salian Holy Roman Empire incorporated it as the "Kingdom of Arles".

The Emperors generally didn't care a whole lot about Arles and used its territory as a place to reward vassals and so forth, degrading its central political integrity. By the interregnum period it ceased to exist. The northern part of the old Kingdom of Arles was referred to as "Upper" Burgundy - the Besançon and Dijon part - and the southern part, which we now know today as Provence and Dauphiné, was "Lower" Burgundy. To make things slightly more confusing, there was a "Duchy of Burgundy" and a "County of Burgundy", which bordered each other and which together made up more or less all of "Upper" Burgundy. It was the Duchy and County of Burgundy that eventually were united under one ruler in the fourteenth century, and in the fifteenth century would form the core of the possessions of the dukes of Burgundy that kept trying to grab the French crown for themselves - you know, guys like Jean the Fearless and Phil the Good and Charles the Reckless Bold. That's the area we call Burgundy these days.
 
My internet has been down last two days due to a blackout.

I know Germany is a mess, but what happened to Germany after the fall of Rome? During the Roman times, they were tribes, when and how did all those tribes arranged themselves into the random german states like Bavaria, Cleves, Wurttemburg, Platinenite, Mecklenburg and other things? (this applies to the dutch as well. Where did the Dutch originate, when did they get there etc. because I don't remember the Romans mentioning them at all, unlike the gauls and germanic states)

Also I don't know my English history so well either. I understand the saxons invaded, occupieng the territory, untill years later, the aftermath led to various English states. ( you can give me a much indepth history of England as well if you want) but how did all those states organize themselves into England?

And I'm also lost in the history of the Franks. I assume they are the predecessor to France, but IIRC they were a Germanic tribe originally atleast. Also, what events led to the creation of France?
 
With England, it's very simple.

The Romans withdrew their forces in the early fifth century, leaving the Romano-Britons in a bit of a sticky situation. We don't really know precisely what happened over the next few decades, but the usual version of it is that the Romano-Britons were worried about being invaded by Germanic tribes, so they hired some of the Germanic mercenaries to protect them. The Germanic mercenaries, led by a dubious pair named Hengist and Horsa, liked what they saw and did a bit of invading themselves. After a lot of invasion, settlement, and general confusion, the dust settled and Britain found itself divided among lots of new kingdoms. The invading Germanic peoples had occupied most of what is now England, pushing the Romano-Britons to the west, the north (in the north) and the southwest (in the southwest). So there were Romano-British kingdoms in these areas, such as Dumnonia (in the southwest, what is now Cornwall and Devon), Gwynedd and Powys (in the west, what is now Wales), Rheged (northwest England, the Lake District Area) and Strathclyde (what is now northwest England and southwest Scotland). The Germanic invaders, meanwhile, had set up lots of kingdoms of their own in what is now England. The most important of these included Kent (in the southeast corner), Wessex (to the southwest), Mercia (in the middle), Essex and East Anglia (in the east), and Northumbria (in the northeast). Although culturally very similar, these kingdoms (and many other, smaller ones) were all independent, basically created when some big bad warlord grabbed all the land he could, parcelled it up between his henchmen, and dug himself in to defend it against all the rival warlords.

It's not really known exactly how all this came about. In particular, it's uncertain whether the Saxons simply invaded and displaced the Romano-Britons who had been living in England (this is the traditional picture) or whether they invaded and then intermingled with them. However it happened, the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms were culturally quite different from the Romano-British ones. The Romano-British kingdoms had a culture that was a mixture of Celtic and Roman, and they were Christians, while the Anglo-Saxons had a culture that was northern European, not dissimilar to Scandinavian culture, and they were pagan. This was one of the rare occasions when paganism displaced Christianity.

Oh, there were also, of course, Picts in what is now Scotland, and also an Irish kingdom called Dalriada in western Scotland which had been founded by settlers from Ireland. These people were all quite culturally distinct too (although we know almost nothing about the Picts).

All of these kingdoms were at constant war with each other. The best way to get a sense of the Anglo-Saxons is to read Beowulf and the other literature that goes back to this period, such as The wanderer and The seafarer. An alternative way is to read or watch The lord of the rings since Tolkien was an Anglo-Saxon scholar and based a great deal of the culture of Middle Earth, especially Arnor and Rohan, on the Anglo-Saxons. In fact Rohan is a very typical Anglo-Saxon kingdom of the sixth or seventh century in pretty much every respect (apart from the orcs). As all this should make clear, the culture was based around constant warfare, with the king and his thanes being the baddest guys around. It was all terribly exciting and heroic, and everyone spent a lot of time walking along cold beaches, wearing lots of gold jewellery, watching whales, and singing long epics about dragon hoards and cursed monsters. The kingdoms fought each other pretty much constantly and waxed and waned accordingly. The weaker ones were gradually absorbed into the stronger ones. But the old names of these kingdoms remained in use, and many of the English counties today keep these names - Sussex (the South Saxons), Essex (the East Saxons), Kent, and so on.

So it went on, with everyone converting to Christianity at various points in the seventh century (they were converted simultaneously by Catholic missions from the continent and Celtic missions from Ireland, with the missionaries meeting somewhere in the middle and getting into tremendous arguments about when to celebrate Easter and how monks should cut their hair). The eighth century saw lots of monastic scholarship and people like Bede and Benedict Biscop, especially in Northumbria. It was Bede who really pioneered the idea of English nationality and culture - before this point they'd all thought of themselves as Mercians/Kentish/whatever first and Saxons second, but Bede thought that they were all "English". The big kingdoms by now were Wessex in the south (which also included Dumnonia, which had lost independence), Mercia in the middle, and Northumbria in the north. Unfortunately, no sooner had the Saxons transformed into bookish monks than hordes of Vikings appeared at the end of the eighth century, and all was chaos once more. Northumbria and Mercia were pretty much destroyed as the Vikings did to the Anglo-Saxons what the Anglo-Saxons had once done to the Romano-British. To cut a long story short, the mid-ninth century saw Alfred, king of Wessex (the only Anglo-Saxon kingdom left), rally the Anglo-Saxons, win lots of battles, and generally sort out the Vikings in a way that involved them all becoming Christians and agreeing to keep to the "Danelaw", an area of Danish settlement that roughly corresponded to old Northumbria, while Alfred was king of the rest. So, in effect, Wessex had "won" the old struggles between the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms. England was now roughly united, more or less, and the remaining two centuries would see it mostly ruled by members of the royal house of Wessex or their relatives (including the odd Dane, such as King Cnut).

All that came to an end in 1066, when the unfortunate king Harold faced not one but two Viking invasions at the same time: one from Harald Hardrada of Norway (whom Harold defeated at the battle of Stamford Bridge), and one from William the Bastard of Normandy, who killed Harold at Hastings, changed his name to the Conqueror, and established the first Norman dynasty of England, thereby officially bringing the country into the High Middle Ages. Later, Anglo-Norman kings would attempt the conquest of the parts of the island that the Anglo-Saxons had never managed to conquer, namely what is now Wales (still full of Romano-British, although they weren't very Romano- by this stage) and what is now Scotland (a confusing mass of Picts, Romano-British, and the descendants of those Irish settlers, now known as the Scots - "Scot" meaning of course "Irish").
 
Not sure a bout the dutch. Try asking Dachs or Cheezy in a PM.

For England, pretty much the same as Italy and France. Kings try to takeAfter a hundred years, everyone forgets what happened, leading to you. ;p
 
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