Term X Defense Ministry

[Chamnix]

Well, our 24 hours is about half gone, so I guess I will post my thoughts here in case our Minister doesn’t get a chance to.

1. Upgrade all cannons to artillery. Although I don’t view the Donuts landing as a threat exactly, it is pretty clear we have to acknowledge the possibility now . Unfortunately, it means we won’t be able to bombard this turn, but given a choice between bombarding both this turn and next turn with a strength of 8, or bombarding only next turn with a strength of 12 and a rate of fire of 2, it doesn’t seem like a tough decision. The only downside to upgrading is we don’t get a defensive bombard since we can’t put our cannons in Rhodes, but even without defensive bombard, if they attack Rhodes with what they have there now, our job becomes much easier.

2. Any conscript infantry drafted move to Rhodes and fortify.

3. All (17?) hoplites move to Rhodes and fortify.

4. Move enough veteran cavalry to Rhodes to bring our total units in Rhodes to 40 and fortify. Do not move elite units to Rhodes. We want our veteran hoplites to be attacked instead of elite cavalry.

5. Keep one cavalry on each of our coastal mountains.

6. Move the cavalry out of the forest near the Nuts stack. There is no reason to lose these units. If the Nuts move to the forest, they get +25% defense. However, if they stay where they are, then they can fortify and get +25% defense. I see no harm in giving them the forest short-term.

7. All other units can continue guarding workers on the beach or preventing flips in northern towns as needed.

 

[General_W]

Hmmm… if we're not going to launch a massive attack on the Dnuts… then it's possible I'll have time to play the save before our friends arrive for dinner.

I just assumed we'd attack – but this plan is much better.
Proof that one should not try to formulate strategy at 6am after just crawling out of bed.

Still – if Cham is willing – I'm sure my wife would rather have help with last minute cleaning and cooking that if I was frantically playing Civ

 

[General_W]

From your screenshot, I count 25 veterans, 6 regulars, and 7 conscript infantry (plus 1 veteran guerilla).

This is quite honestly nothing at all. They have exactly 1 town in range which is easy to defend with 40 units. If Nuts attack, they will lose many more shields than we do since even hoplites fortified in a city are almost 50% against infantry.

The greater threat is that they will wait for more troops and/or KISS will land, but how many more could they have? Hopefully we will find out by upgrading our cannons and watching the strength. I doubt they could land significantly more units next turn - if they had more boats, they should have used them to bring more units this turn.

All in all, I think their sudden crowing making it seem like MIA is in trouble is kind of comical.

Now that my breathing is returning to normal…

You're very right. We can deal with this without too much trouble.

You'll have to forgive my over-reaction… it was very early… and if I'm not mistaken, this is the very first time a foreign power has ever set foot in our territory on the Green Island.

Perhaps we should consider a bit more artillery building than we currently have?

The best move for the Nuts (if they take it) is probably to plant their town, fortify behind their walls, and wait for the cavalry and artillery to arrive.
Now, I'm not sure they'll do that – but if they do, then we have the very bloody prospect of having to root out some fortified behind city walls Infantry… we'll win… but it could be fabulously costly…unless we've got enough artillery to really bring them low.

Or is there another plan to deal with the nuts if they just hunker down?

 

[Chamnix]

I understand - I had the same first reaction you did, but there is no real danger here (at least not yet). The Nuts can't plant their town there because it is too close to Rhodes. They either have to destroy one of our towns or do quite a bit of walking before they can plant theirs.

Their best bet may still just be to fortify and wait for reinforcements, but we will bomb the stuffing out of them next turn. We will attack once they are weaker if they try to stay.

 

[greekguy]

oh, great, D'Nuts attacked and now i have to do my job.

anyhow, i agree with Chamnix on his troop placement. i would like all cannon, except 4 natives to be upgraded, as i'd like to do some attacking this turn. i'd like to bombard their stack a little bit, just to get them thinking this is all we have. that way, we can enjoy them crying themselves to sleep when they see their stack no longer existed 2 turns from now. also, send our Galleon docked in Ephebe to bombard their privateer. if you guys are ok with this, then General_W shoudl consider this post official instructions. basically, follow what Chamnix posted about troop placement, and follow my instructions on all else.

 

[Chamnix]

Re: cannons - OK, but I'm not sure they would fall for that ruse. KISS probably told them approximately how many cannons we captured, and it is unlikely we would disband cost-free slave cannons.

I don't like the idea of sending our galleon against their privateer for a few reasons. First, it is less than a 50/50 battle for us. Secondly, our galleon will not be able to get back to port, so even if we win, we probably lose our boat too. Finally, the privateer is still an essentially useless boat for the Nuts whereas our galleon will have a purpose.

 

[greekguy]

sorry, i should clarify what i meant by "make them think that's all we have". i was hoping by only bombarding with a few cannons, we could try to convince them that we don't have our entire empire on rails yet, and only 4 cannons coudl attack them this turn, thus making them think they can take Rhodes easily.

also, i did say we should bombard the enemy privateer, not attack it, by i see we won anyway, so it's all good.

 

[Chamnix]

Well, I hope you can understand my confusion - galleons can't bombard . Anyway, our boat has unfortunately been sunk or probably enslaved since their is an extra pirate around.

The Nuts have moved their stack to the furs forest by Ithaca and added 4 cannons.

Military suggestions for turn 191:

Frigate from Fe's Winery goes to either April Fools or Far West Port.
Frigate from April Fools looks for something to bombard - end turn back in April Fools.

Split the artillery between Ithaca and the mountain. Bombard Nut's stack with all of them.

Most likely, I would not attack the Nut's stack this turn. If we get very lucky and the top infantry has only 2 hp, then maybe, but I wouldn't waste our cavalry attacking 3 hp infantry in a forest. Their units won't heal, and we can keep bombarding.

Upgrade our final 4 cannons.

Sink the pirate on Heron's fish - one frigate bombards and returns to Tarkingrad, the other kills and continues to Heron. If we get unlucky, then sink the pirate with a galleon from Heron as long as it has no more than 2 hps remaining after fighting the frigates.

(By the way, clear the pollution by Heron and move 2 citizens from coast to fish and polluted tile - it should be at 40 spt).

Split the units between Ithaca and the mountain with an emphasis on Ithaca (mountain has a much greater defense bonus). We have 12 conscript infantry (after drafting 2 this turn), 17 hoplites, and 66 cavalry. Some cavalry will be needed to guard workers without movement left, and we should still keep the elites away, so we probably can't make both places 100% secure against 39 attack units, but they should be 99.99% secure.

I'm thinking something like-

Ithaca - 8 infantry, 11 hoplites, about 20 cavalry.
Mountain - 4 infantry, 6 hoplites, about 20 cavalry (all units fortified, of course).

EDIT - or upgrade some hoplites. Maybe put 6 in Ithaca, 3 on the mountain, and upgrade 8 to infantry this turn. Next turn we can use veteran infantry to defend and upgrade the rest of the hoplites.

Each will also have about 15 artillery for defensive bombard. It would take a miracle for the Nuts to capture either with 39 (mostly injured) units.

 

[Chamnix]

Call me paranoid, but is there any chance the Nuts "settler" is in fact an empty army that they renamed Settler? It shows as a (0.0.1) unit - is that how an empty army would show? We know they had a leader...

I thought about this last turn as well, but it didn't matter because an infantry army couldn't reach anywhere relevant. This turn, if that is an army, then we need 2 units in Rhodes to defend it as well.

 

[Black_Hole]

Call me paranoid, but is there any chance the Nuts "settler" is in fact an empty army that they renamed Settler? It shows as a (0.0.1) unit - is that how an empty army would show? We know they had a leader...

I thought about this last turn as well, but it didn't matter because an infantry army couldn't reach anywhere relevant. This turn, if that is an army, then we need 2 units in Rhodes to defend it as well.

that would definetly be against the rules...

No team or individual is permitted to rename a unit or city with the intent of misleading or confusing opponents.

 

[Chamnix]

You are right, but the ruleset is out of date. I thought the rule was amended to permit renaming anything to anything, but that amendment failed. However, it looks like this amendment passed:

2.4 - Fair trades and peace treaties; unit transparency

Description: No team or individual is permitted to misrepresent what is offered in trades or peace treaties. No team or individual is permitted to misrepresent unit types.

Definition: Cities can be renamed to names of tech or sums of gold or anything else in an effort to not trade what that opponent agreed to. Units can be renamed to other units and appear to be something else entirely.

Purpose: To prevent the misleading of another team through malicious use of in-game features.

Verdict: Using the renaming 'feature' to name a city after a tech or sum of gold is a violation of this rule. Using the renaming 'feature' to name a unit after another type of unit is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Once – Red (5-Expulsion and forfeiture of double what was not legally traded)

*Gently pokes admins to change the official ruleset.

Azzaman, could you follow up on this in case the admins miss this post?

Anyway, the bottom line is they cannot do what I was thinking.

 

[Chamnix]

Is it legal to line our shore with troops to prevent a landing? Some people consider it an exploit, but I don't see anything in the rules about it.

Dnuts and KISS screwed up by not landing simultaneously. However, I expect Dnuts will land significantly cavalry next turn, and if KISS puts together a landing party as well, things could get a little uncomfortable.

I think (if it is legal) that it is worth diverting 8-10 of our cavalry to guard the coast of our northwestern end near KISS' most likely landing spot. Just make sure every tile next to water has a unit on it - it is much easier to tell which tiles are necessary with the grid on.

 

[greekguy]

Well, I hope you can understand my confusion - galleons can't bombard . Anyway, our boat has unfortunately been sunk or probably enslaved since their is an extra pirate around.

hehe, well at least i didn't make a mistake for something that was terribly important.

Frigate from Fe's Winery goes to either April Fools or Far West Port.
Frigate from April Fools looks for something to bombard - end turn back in April Fools.

agree, that should be done to spot for potential enemies.

Split the artillery between Ithaca and the mountain. Bombard Nut's stack with all of them.

sounds good to me, both spots are vital to protect.

Most likely, I would not attack the Nut's stack this turn. If we get very lucky and the top infantry has only 2 hp, then maybe, but I wouldn't waste our cavalry attacking 3 hp infantry in a forest. Their units won't heal, and we can keep bombarding.

i'll issue a "no attack" order for this turn if everyone's ok with it, as our odds attacking their forest shrouded infantry won't be good.

Upgrade our final 4 cannons.

agreed.

Sink the pirate on Heron's fish - one frigate bombards and returns to Tarkingrad, the other kills and continues to Heron. If we get unlucky, then sink the pirate with a galleon from Heron as long as it has no more than 2 hps remaining after fighting the frigates.

sounds like a plan.

(By the way, clear the pollution by Heron and move 2 citizens from coast to fish and polluted tile - it should be at 40 spt).

doesn't that fall under Domestic duties i.e. your job?

Split the units between Ithaca and the mountain with an emphasis on Ithaca (mountain has a much greater defense bonus). We have 12 conscript infantry (after drafting 2 this turn), 17 hoplites, and 66 cavalry. Some cavalry will be needed to guard workers without movement left, and we should still keep the elites away, so we probably can't make both places 100% secure against 39 attack units, but they should be 99.99% secure.

I'm thinking something like-

Ithaca - 8 infantry, 11 hoplites, about 20 cavalry.
Mountain - 4 infantry, 6 hoplites, about 20 cavalry (all units fortified, of course).

EDIT - or upgrade some hoplites. Maybe put 6 in Ithaca, 3 on the mountain, and upgrade 8 to infantry this turn. Next turn we can use veteran infantry to defend and upgrade the rest of the hoplites.

Each will also have about 15 artillery for defensive bombard. It would take a miracle for the Nuts to capture either with 39 (mostly injured) units.

i like your edit suggestion better than your original troop placement idea.

ithaca should have 8 infantry, 6 hoplites, 20 cavs and 16 artillery.
the mountain should have 4 infantry, 3 hoplites, 20 cavs, and 15 artillery.

upgrade the remaining hoplites and upgrade our 4 cannons. i'll post this all as instructions if you guys agree with this stuff, after i post turn 192 military update.

Call me paranoid, but is there any chance the Nuts "settler" is in fact an empty army that they renamed Settler? It shows as a (0.0.1) unit - is that how an empty army would show? We know they had a leader...

I thought about this last turn as well, but it didn't matter because an infantry army couldn't reach anywhere relevant. This turn, if that is an army, then we need 2 units in Rhodes to defend it as well.

if you right click on their stack and scroll down, at the bottom of the menu it gives you the option to look up the civilopedia entry for each unit. the choices are settler, infantry, cannon, and guerilla. so, that's a settler in their stack not an army. they couldn't trick us if they tried.

 

[General_W]

I'm sorry - I already played the save before I saw this update...

I'll be passing the save on and posting the update soon...

 

[greekguy]

Turn 192

Headlines:

* D'Nuts invade Green Continent by crossing Ithaca Strait. MIA government yawns at 39 unit stack and sends the juggernaunt MIA Army to crush the barbaric Iroqi.

* With discovery of Replaceable Parts, the dream of the MIA military utilizing Infantry and Artillery has become reality.

Military Screenshots for the People:

Our military as of Turn 192:



Our military strength compared to other civs:



Our domination numbers according to Civ Assist II:



D'Nut Invasion Force

In the election, I proposed a very high tech and high powered invasion force to successfully invade and conquer D'Nuts. Here I'll show you how much of the force we have acquired and how much more we need. Also, I am going to slightly alter the numbers i originally posted in the election debate, however, these numbers are of course up to further debate by all MIA citizens.

Planned Invasion Force:

80 Bombers
5 Marines
12 Transports
9 Cruisers
All the cavs we still have alive
20 Infantry
25 Artillery

Invasion Force On Hand ATM:

80 Bombers= 0%
5 Marines= 0%
12 Transports= 75%, although the 9 Galleons we have will need to be upgraded to Transports
9 Cruisers= 0%
66 Cavalry: 100%
20 Infantry= 100%, although 10 Hoplites will need to be upgraded to Infantry
25 Artillery= 100%

Still Need to Build/Purchase:

Build 80 Bombers
Build 5 Marines
Upgrade 9 Galleons, build 3 Transports
Build 9 Cruisers
Upgrade 10 Hoplites

The Defense Ministry would just like to reassure all MIA citizens that the pathetic D'Nut force that has invaded our homeland will be dealt with swiftly and efficiently. My UN announced promise of destroying D'Nut stack before Turn 195 will be upheld, and the Green Continent will be safe once again.

 

[greekguy]

I'm sorry - I already played the save before I saw this update...

I'll be passing the save on and posting the update soon...

so how did your in-game actions and my about-to-be offiical instructions match up? did they differ a lot, or did most of the stuff i wanted to happen actually happen?

 

[General_W]

I think I pretty much got it - except the upgrading of the Hoplites.

You can see the full thing now in the State of the Empire Thread.
Sorry again...

(goes to take another nap...)

 

[donsig]

The TNT battery is eager to fight the Nutters. Has Loose Cannon been upgraded? (Mr. President please let us know up Loose Cannon does!)

So it looks like the Nutters are trying to build a city over here? The nerve! How much time do we have to destroy their landing force before they can build a town? Is their stack still on the coast?

 

[Chamnix]

Their stack is still on the coast, and there is still no room for their settler.

Here is the message from the Nuts:

We mowed through all the conscript infantry at Ithaca, all the hoplites, and 5 or 6 of the cavalry that were showing. We had heavy losses of course, losing all but about 18 of our troops. 21 losses IIRC. Cannons hit on 2 of the infantry.

I have to say that absolutely terrified me until I opened the save, and it turns out "mowed through" means injured. It looks like we lost 19 units. I think we lost 5 infantry, 5 hoplites, and 9 cavalry, and we have a bunch of injured units.

Dnuts moved what is probably the rest of their military over. Their stack now consists of:

Empty army
30 infantry (10 4/4, 1 3/3, 1 3/4, 1 3/5, 6 2/2, 1 2/3, 5 2/4, 2 1/2, 1 1/3, 2 1/4)
1 guerilla (3/5)
24 cavalry (1 5/5, 19 4/4, 4 3/3)
2 artillery
4 cannons
1 explorer
1 settler

My gut says we have to attack as 24 cavalry is difficult to defend 3 towns against (and we have to put a token force in Antville and Ephebe to protect against a cavalry army), but I will run some simulations today.

So much for war weariness not being significant in multiplayer - we are at 50% war weariness just from defending.

 

[Chamnix]

Our military:

67 cavalry (4 5/5, 56 4/4, 1 4/5, 2 3/3, 1 3/4, 1 2/4, 1 2/5, 1 1/4)
7 infantry (4 2/2, 3 1/2)
12 hoplites (6 4/4, 2 3/4, 2 2/4, 1 2/5, 1 1/4)
39 artillery

Looking at that, it makes it look pretty clear that we have to attack - 3 towns to defend against 24 cavalry with 19 defensive units doesn't seem like a good idea. I'll still run the simulations to make sure attacking isn't an even worse idea, but I don't think we have many choices.